Deception And Truth Analysis Featuring Jason Voss, A.K.A. "The Voss Of Reason"

This is a very special episode of Free Money. Our guest, Jason Voss, is a close collaborator of both of ours and the Founder/CEO of Deception and Truth Analysis, or DATA. And honestly, if you like this show at all, you’re gonna love this one. We talk about identifiable blind spots in active management processes, the difference between deceit and lying, and all sorts of other good stuff.

Transcript

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[sloane]: And welcome to the free moneyy podcast. Um, it's where we start the podcast. Kind of

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[sloane]: by surprise a little bit earlier than actually. thought.

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[ash_b]: Yes, yes,

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[sloane]: Uh,

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[ash_b]: we screwed it all up, but we're got we do it. live here,

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[sloane]: we do it life, we do it. life. And yeah, as I was just telling Ashby I'm just back

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[sloane]: from my family reunion in Salt Lake City, where I definitely picked up Uh, something

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[sloane]: along the lines of a cold or coved. Um, so

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[ash_b]: fingers cross, We didn't break through Cause

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[sloane]: yep,

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[ash_b]: you, you provx. so I know that. Yeah, Me too.

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[sloane]: I'm provx, Yeah, Yeah, exactly, get the facts about the facts.

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[sloane]: Um,

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[ash_b]: I'm sorry to hear you feeling down, but I have to say look great. You let

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[sloane]: thank you.

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[ash_b]: your butter like bubbly. you know.

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[sloane]: Well, I, I mean, it's There's nothing like hanging out like I have the most adorable

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[sloane]: Mormon family in the history of the world. I mean,

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[ash_b]: Hm.

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[sloane]: like my. my grandparents are like Um, actual icons. Um.

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[ash_b]: Oh,

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[sloane]: the Re. the reason we were out there was for a Gaa event to commemorate my Uh,

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[sloane]: grandfather's ninetieth birthday, and to raise a Um. an endowment to fund arts

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[sloane]: programs.

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[ash_b]: my gosh.

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[sloane]: Um, it' ro, and like it unbelievably cool they've been. They set up this thing

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[sloane]: called the Latter Day Saint Arts center,

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[ash_b]: Hm.

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[sloane]: Um. That is like really helping people remagine what it means to be Mormon. Um. they

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[sloane]: wanted to create space for people like me who are not you know, religiously Mormon.

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[sloane]: Uh, to be

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[ash_b]: yeah.

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[sloane]: like affiliated with it in the same way. So many people are culturally Jewish, Uh,

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[ash_b]: Yeah, I was going to say I know a lot of Jewish people that are atheists but are

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[ash_b]: still Jewish.

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[sloane]: exactly exactly. Yeah, And and like you know, you can't really opt out of the

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[sloane]: Mormonism it's pretty inbred at this point. Uh,

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[sloane]: um,

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[sloane]: but yeah,

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[ash_b]: So you were in Salt Lake.

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[sloane]: you know, uh over. I was over in Salttics, I got my uh, s. ▁l u T shirt, um,

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[ash_b]: Oh,

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[sloane]: slut, uh,

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[ash_b]: you didn't. I don't think you needed to spell out of the. Yeah, no, I think

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[sloane]: yeah, the guy, uh, I, I want to. really. I want to make sure the joke translates for

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[sloane]: the folks in the cheaep seats at home. Uh,

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[ash_b]: that true people who were. I'm not willing to sound out the letters you've just said

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[ash_b]: to be.

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[sloane]: s ▁l u. T. Now what could be

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[sloane]: aligned with Slun's politics? that?

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[ash_b]: I'll come back to that.

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[ash_b]: Well, fantastic I.

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[sloane]: um, but yeah, it's like. I mean. it's like a big hug. I have like the most

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[sloane]: photogenic and lovely family in the world and there, like some of my cousins have

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[sloane]: new babies. That I got

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[ash_b]: Oh,

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[sloane]: to play with and who probably got me sick? Um

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[ash_b]: that's who got you sick. Yup babies are filthy. I've got two of them.

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[sloane]: y. yup. Yep. What's up in what's up in Ashyland?

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[ash_b]: You know that gets you sick all the time. I have uh, an

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[sloane]: You got news? You got an insight?

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[ash_b]: insight I got. Well, I got news. That's next. but, but off the top I got some

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[ash_b]: insights for you. Here's

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[sloane]: I'm clutching my pearls.

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[ash_b]: what I've learned. Here's where I've learned everybody. Everybodycause, it is

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[ash_b]: actually important in detail

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[ash_b]: On sites.

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[ash_b]: Are the new off sits?

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[sloane]: Hm.

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[ash_b]: I'll say it again on side to the new off sites. I keep getting invited to big fancy

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[ash_b]: meetings at the office

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[sloane]: hm,

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[ash_b]: and it's almost like

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[ash_b]: instead of doing an offsight with your team where you go in brainstorm, you finally

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[ash_b]: go to the fricken office for the first time in ages, and you sit down for a big

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[ash_b]: meeting. I've done too in the past

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[sloane]: hm,

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[ash_b]: two weeks, and it actually feels like the appropriate way to use the office

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[sloane]: yeah, y.

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[ash_b]: like you don't need to be in the office every day. People. I don't want to sit in the

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[ash_b]: commune.

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[ash_b]: But like you know, going into the conference room sitting with your folks once a

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[ash_b]: month once every two months for a big strategy Seash. that

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[sloane]: yeah.

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[ash_b]: feels right. And so I'm calling it, I think people like the new post coveed way of

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[ash_b]: doing off sites will be on sites. You'll finally go to the office.

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[sloane]: I. I love that idea. So you'd have like firms setting up like their own little tree

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[sloane]: houses where they can get people together and like you know, kind of have

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[ash_b]: Totally

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[sloane]: like. it'd be more about a hang than than being like, then creating a place for

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[sloane]: people to like. Do you know like the kind of work where you? should you like stick

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[sloane]: your head to a spreadsheet and figure stuff out?

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[ash_b]: exactly. First off. Have I told you that my fantasy with tree houses like I am,

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[sloane]: No,

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[ash_b]: like this, Isra that you would just call that out? Um, I really want a tree house? I

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[ash_b]: love the idea about being up the trees. Uh, that's but, anyways, that's for another

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[ash_b]: podcast. I think. Uh, probably not the free money and but then, yeah, I think it

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[ash_b]: changes the type of um. office space You even need

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[sloane]: yeah,

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[ash_b]: you know? Like why do you? Maybe it makes the case for we work. I don't know what the

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[ash_b]: hell it does, but

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[sloane]: Mm.

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[ash_b]: it definitely is going to change the way you use office space. and um, you know, much

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[ash_b]: more like sharing space, much more like party space.

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[sloane]: yep.

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[ash_b]: Things like that rather than offices with doors,

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[ash_b]: you know,

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[sloane]: yeah. well, I. what I love about that is it recognizes the nature of work as a

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[sloane]: social organism.

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[ash_b]: Mm.

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[sloane]: You know, Um, like, I mean the now, like so many people are starting jobs that

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[sloane]: they'll never meet their coworkers Il, unless those are int. Unless like,

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[ash_b]: so true.

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[sloane]: it's intentionally and and that's great for diversity in a lot of cases. Right like

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[sloane]: that means that you know the the kinds of conversations that like long tenndered

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[sloane]: employees have about strategy wind up being on slack and not in person, and

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[sloane]: therefore they're accessible to people and you know whatever, but um, you know I do

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[sloane]: love this. Uh, this idea of like let's all get together and and like talk for a day.

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[ash_b]: Oh, my gosh, Me too. I. it was a blast to actually sit there in a in an office with

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[ash_b]: some people, and like you know, shoot the shit, Um,

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[sloane]: W. Were you like Hey, so, uh,

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[sloane]: you guys like you guys got. think the world's going crazy.

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[ash_b]: tons of that like, Hey, how, what's crazy for you? I think this is crazy. It's like

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[ash_b]: you forget about the little chit chat you have with coworkers. because the ▁zoom. the

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[ash_b]: stakes are too high. You know,

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[sloane]: Yeah,

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[ash_b]: it's like we're on the ▁zoo. Now this is serious.

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[ash_b]: Whereas when you're just like pass people in the hallway, you're like. let me tell

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[sloane]: oh yeah, it's a Ods.

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[ash_b]: you about this crazy shit that's going on. you know you don't. you don't get that in

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[ash_b]: the virtual world.

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[sloane]: Yeah, I always that guy's time all day,

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[ash_b]: Yeah, anyway, let me get to my news. Now

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[sloane]: M. Mhm,

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[ash_b]: that was my insight. you're welcome, and uh,

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[ash_b]: sorry. the news is quite good. My first bit of news has to do with playing. Follow

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[ash_b]: the Leader in the investment world, Um, I saw the Free Money podcast. Reteed This bit

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[ash_b]: of news to today, so I'm

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[sloane]: you know, if you,

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[ash_b]: guessing you might be familiar with it

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[sloane]: it. Yeah, if you go ahead and follow out free money for twenty sixty nine on

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[sloane]: Twitter, you can actually get ahead of the news cycle. Um, that's one of the things.

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[ash_b]: wholly. Should I forgot. We were free money for twenty sixty nine. That is fantastic.

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[ash_b]: How do we get the lift to pay for that or that was that available?

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[sloane]: Um, yeah, yeah, it's a you know like Dick, and you know, and uh, what's what's this

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[sloane]: face? Jack, the see of Twt and I go way back. I mean, so you know,

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[ash_b]: sweet swee,

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[ash_b]: um, free money for twenty sixty nine. Ah, okay, so follow the leader.

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[ash_b]: these organizations that we study in the world, O pensions and Sovereign Funs, et

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[ash_b]: cetera they struggle to innovate. They would look to each other, and they just follow

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[ash_b]: each other around.

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[ash_b]: Um. And in some ways I find that incredibly frustrating. In other ways, it is

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[ash_b]: actually pretty interesting to see when one organization finally gets off their ass

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[ash_b]: and does something great. All of a sudden, all the others start to follow. And so

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[ash_b]: when the University of California divested from fossil fuel, people are like Huh. And

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[ash_b]: then when Harvard did it, people were like, Oh,

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[ash_b]: and now this week we've got B, U and Mccarthur that have announced they're going to

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[ash_b]: divest from fossil fuel. And I think you know that dyke in the Netherlands is leaking

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[ash_b]: now and we are about to see a flood of these organizations. Decide that they're going

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[ash_b]: to divest out of fossil fuels And those are the moments when you're like shit. Maybe

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[ash_b]: I don't want to teach these organizations to be different.

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[ash_b]: You know where, like,

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[sloane]: Yeah,

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[ash_b]: we could take advantage of their dysfunction, Um, in the herding and the follow the

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[ash_b]: leader mentality, Because pretty exciting to see these these organizations taking

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[ash_b]: that step.

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[sloane]: well, and like tactically now, it's a pretty good time to do it. If you're going to

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[sloane]: do it. I mean, like the cause. You know you've got this nice bump in, you know those

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[sloane]: commodity prices. you know. I guess the Um. you know, the the lexicon is to call it

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[sloane]: a dead cat bounce, which you know is not the most

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[ash_b]: Yes,

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[sloane]: vegan thing. but like you know, if you do believe over a long of time scale that

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[sloane]: those things are going away and you see prices behaving Um. And you have perhaps a

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[sloane]: multi year process of unwinding some of your positions in privates, and whatever,

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[ash_b]: Yeah,

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[sloane]: Um, you know, I mean like no time like the present to get off the horse, you know,

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[sloane]: or get on the horse, or

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[ash_b]: exactly. let's get. Maybe we can do one more analogy. A ho, a cat.

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[sloane]: I'm working on. I mean, I'm a little. I'm a little under the weather, so I, I don't

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[ash_b]: I'll give you to the end of the shell, Giveiv the other of the show to get what more

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[sloane]: know. my

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[ash_b]: edible refers in here.

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[ash_b]: speaking of carbon, not animals, speaking of carbon, Norways, Baheuth,

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[ash_b]: the Um. Government pension fund Global, It doesn't manage a pension fund, Just in

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[ash_b]: case you're wondering, it used to be called the petroleum fund, but it has one point

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[ash_b]: six trillion dollars of capital in it and it is going on The path hasn't come out and

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[ash_b]: said it itself yet. I don't think, um to net neutrality, but even more interesting,

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[ash_b]: it owns about one percent of every company on Earth

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[sloane]: yup.

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[ash_b]: and it is going to start pushing companies to define their path to net neutral. And

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[ash_b]: so you think about this, one of the world's biggest shareholders is. put, the put the

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[ash_b]: word out that they need plans from every

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[sloane]: Yep,

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[ash_b]: company they hold, which is every company.

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[ash_b]: Um, that every company they hold needs to show them a credible plan to net

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[ash_b]: neutrality. Very powerful.

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[sloane]: that's a huge deal. I mean these, these things are getting raised at a g. M. Now,

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[sloane]: Um, by adoacy groups like there's one called as you. So that has

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[ash_b]: Hm.

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[sloane]: done like you know, Probably three hunt. I feel like starting an active asset

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[sloane]: manager makes this a better podcastcause. Now I have a lot more scuttleb about

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[ash_b]: Yeah, you know a lot. you know a lot more.

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[sloane]: what's happened,

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[sloane]: Um, but like, but yeah, like there's so this, this group, as you say, has been

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[sloane]: trying to do that on their own forever. Um, and they're they routinely get like six

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[sloane]: percent of of the vote and shareholder

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[sloane]: resolutions. I think they had like three that passed or ate the past, you know.

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[ash_b]: Wow,

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[ash_b]: so six percent I should not be impressed by, Is that we are saying that's a bad thing

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[sloane]: S. Yeah, yeah, six, six percent of shareholders roote in favor of something is

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[sloane]: basically uh.

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[ash_b]: you lost.

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[sloane]: e. yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

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[ash_b]: This isn't like the Nater crowd being like, Dude, we got four per cent. That's not

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[ash_b]: badn.

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[sloane]: whoa, were go to put the Libertarian party on the map. Uh

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[ash_b]: He was

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[sloane]: you? Yeah, well, whatever,

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[ash_b]: mix bi. a news

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[sloane]: Mm.

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[ash_b]: coming to you from the great City of Saint Louis,

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[ash_b]: Washington

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[ash_b]: Universities Endowment did something that I didn't think was possible. It. Basically,

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[ash_b]: if I round the numbers correctly, Um doubled last year.

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[sloane]: yep,

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[ash_b]: you know, I'm going

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[sloane]: Yep,

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[ash_b]: to do some rounding. I'll admit

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[sloane]: it's a slight right. everything.

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[ash_b]: that, okay, you know, and I'm rounding one down that I know I'm supposed to round up,

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[ash_b]: and then I'm rounding the other one up that I know I'm supposed to round down, but

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[ash_b]: I'm defining my own rules on free money

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[sloane]: Mhm, Mhm,

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[ash_b]: and I basically think it went from eight to sixteen billion in one year, and I am

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[ash_b]: just kind of blown away that you can take that much money which was already a big

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[ash_b]: amount,

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[sloane]: Yep,

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[ash_b]: eight million, and turning into almost sixteen in a single year.

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[sloane]: yup. what. but

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[ash_b]: I think we should all be afraid. I think we should all be afraid by that.

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[sloane]: well, also I think we should be a little bit delighted. I mean, you know one of the

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[sloane]: things I know you love. permanent capital vehicles played a role role in that. Um,

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[ash_b]: Oo. go on

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[sloane]: you know, one of the Uh Washu is the biggest investor in Uh. Brentb Shore's

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[sloane]: permanent capital vehicle.

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[ash_b]: right.

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[sloane]: Um, the you know, which is like, I mean. I remember when he started making noise

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[sloane]: about it on Twitter. I was like this man is insane. Uh, you know, I think he started

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[sloane]: in twenty twelve or something like that. Um, you know and then our friends had. S.

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[sloane]: he's got got on board not too long ago. Um, but I don't know. I don't know how that

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[sloane]: coincides with the wash U thing, but like, Um, you got to do weird stuff.

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[ash_b]: Well, I probably contributed to the performance. must have contributed.

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[sloane]: Yeah, yeah, it's I mean, and it's not by. um.

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[sloane]: It's not by being like, Uh, you know, too super conformist If they did that's by

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[sloane]: taking some risk.

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[ash_b]: Oh, you got to differentiate.

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[sloane]: Yep, yup. you got to

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[sloane]: differentiate speak. Speaking of different

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[ash_b]: It' got a different.

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[ash_b]: Speaking of differentiation. What are we talking about?

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[sloane]: y, we got the. We have probably the most differentiated guy on Earth in the waiting

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[sloane]: room right now.

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[ash_b]: Oh perfect.

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[sloane]: Uh, the Voss of reason, Uh,

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[ash_b]: this is. This is going to be mind blowing to

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[sloane]: yeah,

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[ash_b]: many of our listeners.

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[sloane]: my f, my former colleague, your current colleague, Theoss of reason, Jason of Paul

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[sloane]: of us,

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[jason_apollo_voss]: For for of reason,

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[sloane]: I can't believe I've never done that before. I can't like. I like. I came up with

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[sloane]: that. Uh, in the well, I was you know, getting ready for this to start. Welcome to

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[sloane]: the Free Money podcast.

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[ash_b]: Hi, Jason.

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[jason_apollo_voss]: I, it' superciing to be here honestly, because I haveve watched a couple

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[jason_apollo_voss]: of episodes, then also to hear the level of excitement in Sloan's voices.

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[jason_apollo_voss]: she describes the broadcast like In what you guys are up to that, I'm

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[jason_apollo_voss]: guess the super coal.

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[sloane]: Oh,

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[ash_b]: Yeah, we get really excited about the things that we do.

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[ash_b]: So there's that part of it, but Jason is awesome to have you here. We're going to get

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[ash_b]: into all the wild stuff that you do

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[ash_b]: as chief executive officer of data, which we will define in a moment. We're

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[jason_apollo_voss]: Yeah,

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[ash_b]: not going to define it yet.

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[sloane]: the the literal president of Data here President,

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[ash_b]: Yes, like if you're a listener. Okay,

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[jason_apollo_voss]: noion,

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[ash_b]: C, e, o of data like that's not it and we are not ▁lying. When we say that and Jason

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[ash_b]: will be able to assess that In a moment. You'll see why, But Jason, before we get

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[ash_b]: into deception and truth analysis,

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[jason_apollo_voss]: Yes,

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[ash_b]: We, you were a fun manager. Yout you've been writing

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[ash_b]: like you've been around for a long time, and I didn't realze until part of this this

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[ash_b]: show not says we were preparing for you to come on that you' such a big defender of

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[ash_b]: active management,

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[jason_apollo_voss]: hu,

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[ash_b]: huge

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[sloane]: awkward,

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[ash_b]: defender, huge defender of active management, which is fun

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[jason_apollo_voss]: not but not broadly. I'm a defender under certain conditions.

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[ash_b]: right. so let's under, let dig in and cause we talk a lot about how you know the

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[ash_b]: world of private equity is one in which seventy eight percent of Gp's top corrt.

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[jason_apollo_voss]: Yeah,

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[ash_b]: You know everybody

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[ash_b]: is perpetrating like they're adding tons of value. but I want to hear from you. When

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[ash_b]: does active management work? And why are you such a staunch defender of it in those

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[ash_b]: circumstances

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[jason_apollo_voss]: well, I actually like how you thequi with the. What are the criteria?

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[jason_apollo_voss]: Because that's exactly the conditions that I put on it. Um, I'm gonna

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[jason_apollo_voss]: Ashby, Sloan. You both know me pretty well, but for the audience's sake,

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[jason_apollo_voss]: I like to think of things in terms of continuums, and especially

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[jason_apollo_voss]: opposites, So on one side we've got qualitative, then we've got

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[jason_apollo_voss]: quantitative trying to get in frame. here. Um, so let's serve qualitative

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[jason_apollo_voss]: right. All good arguments and logic theory. Say, you start with

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[jason_apollo_voss]: assumptions first, So the first, then the qualityative one will just get

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[jason_apollo_voss]: out of the way Is. I'm a believer in active management because I'm a

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[jason_apollo_voss]: believer in human beings and human potential and human consciousness to

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[jason_apollo_voss]: solve crazy problems. In fact, passive investing, index investing is a

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[jason_apollo_voss]: human invention, so that's the first thing. But then logically what are

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[jason_apollo_voss]: the criteria? Um, actually, No, I'm going to share a metaphor. So I was a

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[jason_apollo_voss]: speaker in an event called the fund Form in Boston. I don't know. Six,

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[jason_apollo_voss]: seven years ago, it was on the stage. I've written an article talking

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[jason_apollo_voss]: about the benchmark tail, wagging the portfolio management dog that

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[jason_apollo_voss]: morning. Start picked up, and the organizer of this conference unbeknowns

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[jason_apollo_voss]: to me, as well as my guest on stage, which was the Morning Star analyst,

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[jason_apollo_voss]: who actually liked my post, but had written a rebuttal for Morningn Star

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[jason_apollo_voss]: was on stage, and the organizer had set it up as a debate, and both the

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[jason_apollo_voss]: Mo star guy and I thought that that was pretty tacky To sort of throw us

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[jason_apollo_voss]: the wols, but we're both prepared. whatever. So anyway, in the ▁q and A,

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[jason_apollo_voss]: though I asked the following, I was asked the falling question. Um, are

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[jason_apollo_voss]: you believer and active And what? And I said Well, I'm a believer in

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[jason_apollo_voss]: active, because I think almost everybody is looking for their keys under

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[jason_apollo_voss]: the the uh night light or the street light. Not because that's where the

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[jason_apollo_voss]: keys have been lost, but but that's because everybody said that's where

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[jason_apollo_voss]: they should be found.

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[ash_b]: right.

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[jason_apollo_voss]: And so

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[sloane]: y,

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[jason_apollo_voss]: what does that mean And how doess that relate to the criteria? Well,

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[jason_apollo_voss]: First of all, I was an active and I had success. Uh, I beat the s. P.

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[jason_apollo_voss]: Five hundred, my benchmark by forty nine point one percent, and my career

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[jason_apollo_voss]: iss a perennial lipper number one for multiple periods, I still don't see

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[jason_apollo_voss]: from my Catbird seat, Uh, being a consultant firms doing what I used to

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[jason_apollo_voss]: do. So I know that it's possible I know those techniques work. Because,

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[jason_apollo_voss]: when I have worked with firms that are successful as a consultant,

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[jason_apollo_voss]: Because, until the first of September, I was C you of Active investor

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[jason_apollo_voss]: Management consulting Dot Com, the firms that I work with that are

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[jason_apollo_voss]: beating the benchmark, Consistently beating the benchmark are doing very

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[jason_apollo_voss]: similar things to what I was doing. So then that says Huh, Maybe we can

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[jason_apollo_voss]: trust these criteria. Okay, so what are some of the criteria? Um,

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[jason_apollo_voss]: concentrated works well, Uh, conviction works well, M. those things are

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[jason_apollo_voss]: somewhat the same assets under their management. Less than two billion

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[jason_apollo_voss]: works well, unconstrained works well, There's a perfect. No.

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[jason_apollo_voss]: But is it predictive of future outper performance? Yes, that was part

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[jason_apollo_voss]: comes from a study that we did for Active, and or I'm sorry, The return

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[jason_apollo_voss]: of the active manager? A co authorhur, Burke, I did with Tom Howard, and

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[jason_apollo_voss]: we actually did research for the book to support Um. our point of view

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[jason_apollo_voss]: because we heard people say. Yeah, I believe in active, but I know how to

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[jason_apollo_voss]: identify those managers. I'm just going to sell these Uh index products

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[ash_b]: Hm

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[jason_apollo_voss]: because of it, Um. So

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[jason_apollo_voss]: the the short answer is, I'm I'm a believer because I know that people

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[jason_apollo_voss]: still aren't doing what I did as late as two thousand five, sixteen years

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[jason_apollo_voss]: ago, and I can. I'm happy to talk about this criteria. I talk about them

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[jason_apollo_voss]: publicly frequently. Um, but one final point, Um,

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[jason_apollo_voss]: Because it I, I have to explain my metaphor with the looking for your

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[jason_apollo_voss]: keys under the light,

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[jason_apollo_voss]: and I'm going to use. I forgive, I'm using another analogy And and it

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[jason_apollo_voss]: comes from Return to the act of manager, Yeah, can,

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[ash_b]: 's all good. We, before you get on we, we had like seven animal

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[ash_b]: analogies, So if you could throw an animal in there

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[sloane]: yeah, y, y.

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[jason_apollo_voss]: Yeah, exactly

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[jason_apollo_voss]: all

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[ash_b]: that would be great.

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[ash_b]: that would be great.

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[sloane]: yeah, yeah,

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[jason_apollo_voss]: I, I. I will. I will throw in a sprinter. How is that somebody who runs

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[jason_apollo_voss]: as fast as or faster than Min Anals? So ussain bull, say, whossain ball,

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[jason_apollo_voss]: unquestionably the greatest, You, one hundred and two meters, two hundred

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[jason_apollo_voss]: meters sprinter of all time, Say you are some one trying to recruit a Uh,

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[jason_apollo_voss]: great sprinter for your Olympic track, Teak, right, tough competition. We

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[jason_apollo_voss]: can liken it. Investment management, very tough to do is every sprinter,

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[jason_apollo_voss]: you sayain, Bo. no, No, they are not, and that isn't the standard. But

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[jason_apollo_voss]: imagine the following, Ah, I want Luce Bolts retired so Iward to uh,

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[jason_apollo_voss]: somebody who is exactly his same height. I wanted somebody the same

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[jason_apollo_voss]: weight. I want somebody who has the same body mass index, his body fat

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[jason_apollo_voss]: level. I want somebody who has the same Fastwich muscle responses in his

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[jason_apollo_voss]: legs. I would have hired his track coach. Six, I want to hire. I may even

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[jason_apollo_voss]: get Nike to make the same custom shoes. They made for Husseain and I, and

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[jason_apollo_voss]: maybe I'll even get the same person from the same township to run the

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[jason_apollo_voss]: race. Here's that is a metaphor for how active manager is done and the

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[jason_apollo_voss]: constraints put on them. You have to be Hussaint Bull, and by a

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[jason_apollo_voss]: definition we've said The index is you say. Well, here's the problem.

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[jason_apollo_voss]: We've lost sight of something. It's not about being you sain bol, it's

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[jason_apollo_voss]: about winning the god damn race.

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[ash_b]: Am

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[jason_apollo_voss]: and

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[sloane]: three, yeah,

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[jason_apollo_voss]: to me, that's why I'm a defender of active management is our active

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[jason_apollo_voss]: manager is constructed unconsciously. A number of mechanisms designed to

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[jason_apollo_voss]: describe performance after the fact that have become navigal compass

404

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[jason_apollo_voss]: points before the fact, and most of the problems of why act of under

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[jason_apollo_voss]: performs I would chalk up to,

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[jason_apollo_voss]: We will do anything to get the additional dollar of assets under

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00:20:22,754 --> 00:20:26,674

[jason_apollo_voss]: management that our consultants and our acid owners request of us,

408

00:20:27,554 --> 00:20:31,874

[jason_apollo_voss]: including throw on to the bonfire, our actual ability to deliver Alpha.

409

00:20:32,390 --> 00:20:33,390

[sloane]: hm,

410

00:20:33,600 --> 00:20:36,400

[ash_b]: the very fact that we call it Active management. By the way.

411

00:20:36,900 --> 00:20:37,900

[ash_b]: it's

412

00:20:38,080 --> 00:20:43,280

[ash_b]: it. It is a very conformous way of describing it because it's it's a function of like

413

00:20:44,640 --> 00:20:48,960

[ash_b]: putting it up against the passive management, and so act in the old days we would

414

00:20:49,020 --> 00:20:50,020

[ash_b]: just call it investing.

415

00:20:50,150 --> 00:20:51,150

[sloane]: yup,

416

00:20:51,440 --> 00:20:55,120

[ash_b]: And then we had the passive and now you're active. but oh, you're an active. so

417

00:20:55,200 --> 00:20:59,600

[ash_b]: you're all together over there in active land. The the difference for us is that,

418

00:21:00,000 --> 00:21:04,560

[ash_b]: like I think the three of us would say, the differentiation is where the value comes

419

00:21:04,800 --> 00:21:09,200

[ash_b]: from. and, and so, calling them active, or calling them, whatever the point is, you

420

00:21:09,280 --> 00:21:14,160

[ash_b]: need to be unconstrained and you need to be able to go and and pursue the truth in

421

00:21:14,320 --> 00:21:17,040

[ash_b]: different ways. anyway. I love the way you're describing it.

422

00:21:17,074 --> 00:21:19,794

[jason_apollo_voss]: Yeah, yeah, oh, I'll have one other thing other there. But and I I love

423

00:21:19,954 --> 00:21:22,274

[jason_apollo_voss]: analogies. Both of you know that by now, Um,

424

00:21:24,194 --> 00:21:27,154

[jason_apollo_voss]: creativity enough are essentially the same thing. right Alpha is

425

00:21:27,234 --> 00:21:30,034

[jason_apollo_voss]: delivering results that nobody else is doing by doing things that nobody

426

00:21:30,194 --> 00:21:33,634

[jason_apollo_voss]: else is doing. And by the way, creativity has the same definition. One of

427

00:21:33,714 --> 00:21:37,554

[jason_apollo_voss]: the things that I used to do was I wanted as many options on the table as

428

00:21:37,714 --> 00:21:42,994

[jason_apollo_voss]: possible to unleash my creativity. How creative is it when you are a

429

00:21:43,074 --> 00:21:48,194

[jason_apollo_voss]: midcap core manager? and if you've done your job well and your assets

430

00:21:48,514 --> 00:21:52,274

[jason_apollo_voss]: appreciate, you may have ▁zero turnover, but eventually you're going to

431

00:21:52,354 --> 00:21:55,954

[jason_apollo_voss]: drift up into large cap value. you're going to have a consultant call you

432

00:21:55,954 --> 00:21:59,074

[jason_apollo_voss]: up and say you know what you've got. Style drift. You know you guys need

433

00:21:59,154 --> 00:22:02,274

[jason_apollo_voss]: to manage this or we're going to fire you. Oh, by the way, that's twenty

434

00:22:01,040 --> 00:23:59,360

[ash_b]: Ssssssssssssss.

435

00:22:02,514 --> 00:22:06,034

[jason_apollo_voss]: percent of your a U. M that it's going to go out the door, and so now

436

00:22:06,114 --> 00:22:09,234

[jason_apollo_voss]: we're going to have to lay off the two hundred uh, customer service. C.

437

00:22:09,474 --> 00:22:12,754

[jason_apollo_voss]: you know representatives that we've got in part of the compliance

438

00:22:12,994 --> 00:22:16,434

[jason_apollo_voss]: department and the real world consequences to style drift. That has

439

00:22:16,594 --> 00:22:21,314

[jason_apollo_voss]: nothing to do with seeking performance. So to me that's that's why I'm a

440

00:22:21,394 --> 00:22:25,634

[jason_apollo_voss]: believer in active now. If I were starting affrm today, I would not want

441

00:22:25,714 --> 00:22:29,154

[jason_apollo_voss]: to scale it, I would start with a different business model. I think all

442

00:22:29,234 --> 00:22:34,594

[jason_apollo_voss]: of these things are rooted in the business model of the business is

443

00:22:35,234 --> 00:22:39,314

[jason_apollo_voss]: management fee, a percentage of the assets under management. If you had

444

00:22:37,130 --> 00:23:01,770

[sloane]: mm, Hm. Well, so

445

00:22:39,394 --> 00:22:40,594

[jason_apollo_voss]: it performance based,

446

00:22:41,634 --> 00:22:46,194

[jason_apollo_voss]: nobody would make the decisions to scale up their assets because every p.

447

00:22:46,354 --> 00:22:50,514

[jason_apollo_voss]: M, who's ever managed money actively at the bar, they will all say well,

448

00:22:50,594 --> 00:22:53,714

[jason_apollo_voss]: it's a pain of the butt. It's really hard to do it, and your three

449

00:22:53,874 --> 00:22:57,474

[jason_apollo_voss]: hundred and third favorite security is not likely to deliver the same

450

00:22:57,634 --> 00:22:59,714

[jason_apollo_voss]: outf as your top ten. and the data shows that

451

00:23:00,834 --> 00:23:04,034

[jason_apollo_voss]: and the only reason I buy the three hundred and third position in my

452

00:23:04,034 --> 00:23:07,954

[jason_apollo_voss]: portfolio, you know, be less less condescending my hundred and third

453

00:23:08,354 --> 00:23:12,114

[jason_apollo_voss]: largest position. The only reason I do is I have to soak up assets in

454

00:23:12,274 --> 00:23:17,394

[jason_apollo_voss]: cash that's been sent to me because the way I make money is a bigger pile

455

00:23:17,554 --> 00:23:21,074

[jason_apollo_voss]: of cash as opposed to uh, actually delivering performance.

456

00:23:21,770 --> 00:23:25,130

[sloane]: hm. I mean. Well, you know that's that gets right to the next question. I mean, like

457

00:23:25,130 --> 00:23:29,290

[sloane]: you know, I, I think that you know investors in general if you go to them and you're

458

00:23:29,450 --> 00:23:33,130

[sloane]: like Hey, you guys have and you've kind of done this like you've taken your like

459

00:23:33,210 --> 00:23:37,690

[sloane]: ninety five theseis, and like you know, pin them to the front door, Uh, various, you

460

00:23:37,770 --> 00:23:43,130

[sloane]: know, uh investment industry, um cathedrals, And you know, and sort of said he, you

461

00:23:43,210 --> 00:23:47,370

[sloane]: know, Hey, like look, I mean this is. this is the metaphor show guys. Everyone loves

462

00:23:47,070 --> 00:23:48,070

[sloane]: it,

463

00:23:49,050 --> 00:23:53,690

[sloane]: but you know, I mean that's one of the big big blind spots right there is optimizing

464

00:23:53,850 --> 00:23:58,170

[sloane]: for fee income. Um, you know, I wonder like, are there any other unifying

465

00:23:58,330 --> 00:24:02,650

[sloane]: characteristics that you would kind of point you if you think about, you know things

466

00:24:00,640 --> 00:25:18,800

[ash_b]: issssssssssssss.

467

00:24:02,810 --> 00:24:06,250

[sloane]: that the investment profession is just not set up to deal with wealth?

468

00:24:06,914 --> 00:24:10,754

[jason_apollo_voss]: Well, I mean, that's a huge one, right. So if that were changed and were

469

00:24:10,994 --> 00:24:12,994

[jason_apollo_voss]: performance driven, you would see the immediate

470

00:24:14,434 --> 00:24:18,674

[jason_apollo_voss]: loss of a u. M in the ▁quot active categories because people who have

471

00:24:18,834 --> 00:24:24,594

[jason_apollo_voss]: been closet indexers or just barely fail Ors, For you know, ten years

472

00:24:24,914 --> 00:24:27,954

[jason_apollo_voss]: would leave the business and what they would do is they would consolidate

473

00:24:28,114 --> 00:24:31,554

[jason_apollo_voss]: with other managers. scale and slow. You and I wrote about this

474

00:24:31,634 --> 00:24:34,914

[jason_apollo_voss]: investment idea generation guide, Or I'm sorry, we, We did work for a

475

00:24:34,914 --> 00:24:38,354

[jason_apollo_voss]: future state of investment profession. My apologies for C F. A institute,

476

00:24:38,434 --> 00:24:41,474

[jason_apollo_voss]: but we use scenario planning thinking to do this. What does the world

477

00:24:41,714 --> 00:24:45,154

[jason_apollo_voss]: look like? Fast forward seven to ten years in theveestel business? And we

478

00:24:45,154 --> 00:24:48,354

[jason_apollo_voss]: said there'd be massive consolidation. What would be left are Act

479

00:24:48,754 --> 00:24:52,514

[jason_apollo_voss]: manager? You actually could do what they do. The consolidators will cut

480

00:24:52,754 --> 00:24:57,234

[jason_apollo_voss]: their fees lower, lower, lower, lower, and essentially they're going to

481

00:24:57,314 --> 00:25:00,514

[jason_apollo_voss]: look for ways to compete. The prediction of future, Sayve, the investment

482

00:25:00,674 --> 00:25:04,834

[jason_apollo_voss]: profession that I argued, and it was really hard to get in. Uh, it was

483

00:25:04,914 --> 00:25:08,834

[jason_apollo_voss]: kind of an over my dead body. If this doesn't get in, I said that we

484

00:25:08,654 --> 00:25:09,654

[jason_apollo_voss]: would see

485

00:25:10,354 --> 00:25:13,074

[jason_apollo_voss]: Uh, fund management offered as a lost leader,

486

00:25:14,114 --> 00:25:19,074

[jason_apollo_voss]: and like twenty four months later Fidelity came out and offered ▁zero

487

00:25:18,814 --> 00:25:19,814

[jason_apollo_voss]: fee.

488

00:25:19,954 --> 00:25:23,234

[jason_apollo_voss]: In thats what Management and I said. What they will try to do is add on

489

00:25:20,000 --> 00:25:21,040

[ash_b]: Yeah, I'

490

00:25:23,474 --> 00:25:27,794

[jason_apollo_voss]: higher value ad services. And because of computing, because of a I,

491

00:25:28,034 --> 00:25:32,354

[jason_apollo_voss]: because of big data scraping all that stuff, you can offer a high touch

492

00:25:32,594 --> 00:25:36,834

[jason_apollo_voss]: private wealth client to a smaller a U M client than you were before. My

493

00:25:36,914 --> 00:25:41,234

[jason_apollo_voss]: prediction is we're going to see lots of consolidation and the small and

494

00:25:41,394 --> 00:25:44,914

[jason_apollo_voss]: medium sized clients are going to get better service than they ever have

495

00:25:45,074 --> 00:25:49,154

[jason_apollo_voss]: been before. And they'm not talking about some of the the robos, Um.

496

00:25:50,034 --> 00:25:53,154

[jason_apollo_voss]: That's a whole, another subject. But anyway, Um, and I and I think what

497

00:25:53,234 --> 00:25:55,554

[jason_apollo_voss]: youre couldnna have left is an active category that has different

498

00:25:55,634 --> 00:25:58,834

[jason_apollo_voss]: business models. They're going to say, you know what we can't compete

499

00:25:58,994 --> 00:26:02,754

[jason_apollo_voss]: here. Interesting, Stat'll throw out because this is a. This is such a

500

00:26:02,834 --> 00:26:06,834

[jason_apollo_voss]: fun topic and a passion. One. For me, Um, you would think that the

501

00:26:06,994 --> 00:26:10,914

[jason_apollo_voss]: highest fee charging managers. Oh, I'm sorry, you would think the best

502

00:26:11,474 --> 00:26:15,554

[jason_apollo_voss]: performing managers, the most consistently good performing managers would

503

00:26:15,634 --> 00:26:19,234

[jason_apollo_voss]: have low fees. It's actually the opposite. They charge the highest fees

504

00:26:19,474 --> 00:26:22,434

[jason_apollo_voss]: because they recognize the value of research. That was research that we

505

00:26:22,514 --> 00:26:25,394

[jason_apollo_voss]: did for Return of the Active Manager that we published in the book, And

506

00:26:25,474 --> 00:26:28,994

[jason_apollo_voss]: it's on. I think, s. s r N. if I'm not mistaken, and we thought that was

507

00:26:29,154 --> 00:26:32,354

[jason_apollo_voss]: quite interesting. Somebody else did a follow piece of research and they

508

00:26:32,434 --> 00:26:35,714

[jason_apollo_voss]: confirmed the same thing. The best performing managers have the highest

509

00:26:36,034 --> 00:26:39,714

[jason_apollo_voss]: fees and that runs completely contrary to what people believe, but it

510

00:26:39,954 --> 00:26:43,954

[jason_apollo_voss]: again shows charge for performance and that that's a more

511

00:26:43,780 --> 00:26:44,780

[ash_b]: yeah.

512

00:26:44,034 --> 00:26:45,234

[jason_apollo_voss]: correct business model.

513

00:26:45,690 --> 00:26:50,970

[sloane]: It that also kind of underpins like you know what you know, a view of what investing

514

00:26:51,210 --> 00:26:54,810

[sloane]: is right. Like you know, Th. Those guys are charging higher fees because they have

515

00:26:54,970 --> 00:26:59,210

[sloane]: process thats outside of the the the traditional. You know way of doing things that

516

00:26:59,130 --> 00:27:02,170

[sloane]: that creates results that are outside of the traditional way of doing things, and

517

00:27:02,250 --> 00:27:05,450

[sloane]: that allows them to justify. You know this sort of thing, I think Steve Cohen

518

00:27:05,610 --> 00:27:09,210

[sloane]: famously charge like four and forty for a while, or rent, maybe charges four and

519

00:27:09,210 --> 00:27:10,250

[sloane]: forty or something like that.

520

00:27:10,674 --> 00:27:13,634

[jason_apollo_voss]: Ford Forty, that's good. get my answerk. One last thing. I know, we got a

521

00:27:13,534 --> 00:27:14,534

[jason_apollo_voss]: lot to cover, and

522

00:27:14,330 --> 00:27:16,410

[sloane]: Absolutely not. No, yes, you what you want?

523

00:27:15,474 --> 00:27:19,874

[jason_apollo_voss]: it asy is a as a, a full disclosure founding advisor of data wants me to

524

00:27:19,774 --> 00:27:20,774

[jason_apollo_voss]: talk data. Oh, this

525

00:27:20,340 --> 00:27:21,340

[ash_b]: ▁zero,

526

00:27:20,574 --> 00:27:21,574

[jason_apollo_voss]: is ancient industry.

527

00:27:22,514 --> 00:27:28,994

[jason_apollo_voss]: Well, well, so the the other thing I'll say, Uh about active is it's not

528

00:27:28,774 --> 00:27:29,774

[jason_apollo_voss]: easy,

529

00:27:30,054 --> 00:27:31,054

[jason_apollo_voss]: but

530

00:27:30,420 --> 00:27:31,420

[ash_b]: right,

531

00:27:30,754 --> 00:27:36,834

[jason_apollo_voss]: it's even harder. still if you agree to all these unnecessary own goals

532

00:27:37,794 --> 00:27:42,914

[jason_apollo_voss]: and to going back to the Fun forum thing in Boston. I gave the the

533

00:27:43,074 --> 00:27:46,354

[jason_apollo_voss]: analogy you know, with the looking for the keys, cent of the light and a

534

00:27:46,514 --> 00:27:50,514

[jason_apollo_voss]: guy the guys follow. Question to me was the following. he said. Well, how

535

00:27:50,594 --> 00:27:55,314

[jason_apollo_voss]: do you compete when? Uh, everybody in the universe now looks at, you

536

00:27:55,394 --> 00:27:58,514

[jason_apollo_voss]: know, the large cap stocks in the United States already have bad value

537

00:27:58,754 --> 00:28:01,954

[jason_apollo_voss]: and I said I hope that every single one of my computeretors thinks that's

538

00:28:01,934 --> 00:28:02,934

[jason_apollo_voss]: the problem to solve.

539

00:28:05,110 --> 00:28:06,110

[sloane]: Yup,

540

00:28:05,494 --> 00:28:06,494

[jason_apollo_voss]: The problem to

541

00:28:06,140 --> 00:28:07,140

[ash_b]: totally

542

00:28:06,354 --> 00:28:10,194

[jason_apollo_voss]: solved is define return wherever it exists, and by the way, that is what

543

00:28:10,274 --> 00:28:13,794

[jason_apollo_voss]: the fund management industry was, prior to Famma and French saying,

544

00:28:14,114 --> 00:28:19,234

[jason_apollo_voss]: identifying two unique factors, the small cap effect and the value

545

00:28:19,634 --> 00:28:23,074

[jason_apollo_voss]: effect, which then literally not for return to the act of Bandro, I traed

546

00:28:23,234 --> 00:28:26,434

[jason_apollo_voss]: the history like two months after Farm and French in Chicago.

547

00:28:27,554 --> 00:28:30,674

[jason_apollo_voss]: At their there, they had some event I, that which they still host

548

00:28:30,914 --> 00:28:34,834

[jason_apollo_voss]: occasionally, Um, where they talk about. You know anomalies within the

549

00:28:34,994 --> 00:28:39,234

[jason_apollo_voss]: official market hypothesis and they, anyway, they revealed these two to

550

00:28:39,394 --> 00:28:42,834

[jason_apollo_voss]: greatate claim in Nineteen ninety Two two months later, Morning Star,

551

00:28:43,074 --> 00:28:46,034

[jason_apollo_voss]: also in Chicago. I'm guessing they' in attendance I' tried to confirm. it

552

00:28:46,114 --> 00:28:49,874

[jason_apollo_voss]: released the style boox with Guess what, and essentially this was meant

553

00:28:50,034 --> 00:28:54,034

[jason_apollo_voss]: to describe the Starbucks was how performance is delivered by managers.

554

00:28:54,194 --> 00:28:57,954

[jason_apollo_voss]: Because the progenitors of the official market hypothesis, Sonoa,

555

00:28:58,114 --> 00:29:01,314

[jason_apollo_voss]: acknowledg, You can't add value. These are the two ways how, and we're

556

00:29:01,394 --> 00:29:05,794

[jason_apollo_voss]: stuck now with the style Boox and it is illegitimate. So reasons, it's

557

00:29:05,874 --> 00:29:08,914

[jason_apollo_voss]: such a passiono. Last thing I said, this is the third time I said last

558

00:29:09,074 --> 00:29:13,314

[jason_apollo_voss]: thing, both axes, proof that it's illegitimate. Both actxes have price of

559

00:29:13,474 --> 00:29:17,314

[jason_apollo_voss]: the securities that the measure of both axes. So what that means is both

560

00:29:17,394 --> 00:29:19,474

[jason_apollo_voss]: of them are superp sensitive. Tell you what

561

00:29:19,060 --> 00:29:20,060

[ash_b]: yeah.

562

00:29:19,634 --> 00:29:22,754

[jason_apollo_voss]: independent measures of the same if different phenomena, wouldn't that

563

00:29:22,834 --> 00:29:24,674

[jason_apollo_voss]: alone, tell you that it's illegitimate.

564

00:29:25,694 --> 00:29:26,694

[jason_apollo_voss]: Just just logically

565

00:29:26,800 --> 00:29:32,640

[ash_b]: yeah, and if cre, if creativity is alpha, you've now been stuck in a box like.

566

00:29:33,760 --> 00:29:35,600

[ash_b]: Where's the creativity?

567

00:29:35,734 --> 00:29:36,734

[jason_apollo_voss]: anyway,

568

00:29:36,230 --> 00:29:37,230

[sloane]: Yp.

569

00:29:36,594 --> 00:29:41,314

[jason_apollo_voss]: I don't. I'll I. I will smack my gob. I learned today, The God Smack

570

00:29:41,474 --> 00:29:44,914

[jason_apollo_voss]: literally means to like, cover your mouth right, some Fx gopsma.

571

00:29:45,530 --> 00:29:46,650

[sloane]: Well, no, hey', I mean,

572

00:29:47,040 --> 00:29:48,080

[ash_b]: Thank you, Thank you,

573

00:29:47,130 --> 00:29:50,330

[sloane]: I guess I have a related question before we get the data, which is, have you ever

574

00:29:50,410 --> 00:29:52,010

[sloane]: had a lukewarm opinion? Jason.

575

00:29:53,554 --> 00:29:57,634

[jason_apollo_voss]: I did it earlier today. I was I. I. I'm winding up my consulting career

576

00:29:57,794 --> 00:30:01,874

[jason_apollo_voss]: and I was talking to a consultant and they asked me how how to discuss a

577

00:30:01,954 --> 00:30:05,554

[jason_apollo_voss]: difficult subject. Guess what with their consulting community and I said,

578

00:30:06,114 --> 00:30:09,954

[jason_apollo_voss]: I don't know. I said I said I'm fifty fifty Either way, so that's your

579

00:30:10,114 --> 00:30:14,754

[jason_apollo_voss]: judgment, so yes, I do. I have Luke form opinions, but I'm privileged

580

00:30:14,914 --> 00:30:18,594

[jason_apollo_voss]: because people, I guess either like what that I'm loud, or whatever they

581

00:30:18,674 --> 00:30:22,194

[jason_apollo_voss]: it is they like about me that I'm invited into the forms where I get to

582

00:30:22,274 --> 00:30:24,754

[jason_apollo_voss]: talk about the things I do have strong opinions about.

583

00:30:26,330 --> 00:30:30,490

[sloane]: Yep. well, and like I mean, so this is. You know what we've been leading up to.

584

00:30:31,130 --> 00:30:34,410

[sloane]: Let's talk about data. I mean, like I, you know, I am old enough to remember. I've

585

00:30:34,490 --> 00:30:39,290

[sloane]: known you for long enough to uh, remember you like selling doing some lie detection

586

00:30:39,450 --> 00:30:42,730

[sloane]: research internally. It. see if institute as like a thing that was worth your time.

587

00:30:44,490 --> 00:30:49,050

[sloane]: But can you maybe characterize like what the heck people thought about it? What was

588

00:30:49,210 --> 00:30:53,450

[sloane]: published when you got to it and what's changed in the last five years in terms of

589

00:30:53,530 --> 00:30:56,090

[sloane]: like you know, professional practical understanding of this stuff?

590

00:30:56,400 --> 00:30:58,400

[ash_b]: and defined data so that we can

591

00:30:58,070 --> 00:30:59,070

[sloane]: Oh yeah,

592

00:30:58,420 --> 00:30:59,420

[ash_b]: find late. Yeah,

593

00:30:59,394 --> 00:31:03,474

[jason_apollo_voss]: Yeah, guess so data that Ashby Sloan are referring to Deception of truth

594

00:31:03,634 --> 00:31:08,754

[jason_apollo_voss]: in us is d a t. a uh, my new company and I'm the full time c, e o of A as

595

00:31:08,754 --> 00:31:12,434

[jason_apollo_voss]: of first of September, though I'm winding down previous commitments. Uh,

596

00:31:13,154 --> 00:31:16,834

[jason_apollo_voss]: and it? It's a company where we use computers, specifically natural

597

00:31:17,154 --> 00:31:20,514

[jason_apollo_voss]: language processing to quickly and rapidly assess the level of

598

00:31:20,514 --> 00:31:24,114

[jason_apollo_voss]: deceptiveness or truthfulness within a document. We can ▁zero in within

599

00:31:24,354 --> 00:31:28,674

[jason_apollo_voss]: like you, like four pages. Uh, within a document of where the deception

600

00:31:28,834 --> 00:31:32,914

[jason_apollo_voss]: is in the language That trigger triggered our egos. Um. So anyway, going

601

00:31:32,994 --> 00:31:37,634

[jason_apollo_voss]: back to c f a institute? Yeah, th. it was actually slung when I chose to

602

00:31:37,714 --> 00:31:41,314

[jason_apollo_voss]: exit retirement. I don't know. To what degree this has really sort of

603

00:31:41,394 --> 00:31:44,674

[jason_apollo_voss]: been widely discussed in a public forum before, and I don't even know

604

00:31:44,754 --> 00:31:49,154

[jason_apollo_voss]: that you know it'slo But I chose to exit retirement. I was a happy you

605

00:31:49,234 --> 00:31:52,754

[jason_apollo_voss]: know, uh, pickup football basketball, uh player, and published a

606

00:31:52,914 --> 00:31:56,994

[jason_apollo_voss]: investment blog mostly to deflect uh, relatives and friends asking me

607

00:31:57,074 --> 00:31:59,954

[jason_apollo_voss]: investment questions. Like if I put on a blog, I can just say read the

608

00:31:59,954 --> 00:32:04,994

[jason_apollo_voss]: blog. Um, and to to preserve, you know, my pickup football games, and

609

00:32:05,074 --> 00:32:09,794

[jason_apollo_voss]: what have you? Um? so anyway, um, during the financial crisis, though uh

610

00:32:09,954 --> 00:32:13,634

[jason_apollo_voss]: dawn, my wife and I were watching television and there was a Perp walk

611

00:32:14,034 --> 00:32:18,434

[jason_apollo_voss]: and they were walking out some finance executive. Uh, to to you know,

612

00:32:18,594 --> 00:32:21,634

[jason_apollo_voss]: they were arrested and I said we're all the good people in finance. I

613

00:32:21,714 --> 00:32:26,274

[jason_apollo_voss]: said I, You know, I've been in finance at that point twenty years, or how

614

00:32:26,434 --> 00:32:29,154

[jason_apollo_voss]: many years it had been? They said there are good people in finance. In

615

00:32:29,154 --> 00:32:32,914

[jason_apollo_voss]: fact, most of them are Renaissance human beings that are curious, broadly

616

00:32:33,394 --> 00:32:36,754

[jason_apollo_voss]: interested in the world, trying to do things right, trying to change

617

00:32:37,154 --> 00:32:38,994

[jason_apollo_voss]: things, Et cetera And she goes,

618

00:32:42,274 --> 00:32:45,074

[jason_apollo_voss]: and I was like. Are are you talking to me And she's like

619

00:32:47,634 --> 00:32:51,874

[jason_apollo_voss]: And I was like Point taken. Yeah, I. I. I guess I'm one of supposedly

620

00:32:52,034 --> 00:32:55,234

[jason_apollo_voss]: good people in finance and I'm just yelling at this T. v doing nothing.

621

00:32:55,554 --> 00:32:59,314

[jason_apollo_voss]: And so I was like, Okay, Well, where can I have influence? And where can

622

00:32:59,394 --> 00:33:02,434

[jason_apollo_voss]: I have platform without necessarily being a fund manager again, which I

623

00:33:02,434 --> 00:33:06,594

[jason_apollo_voss]: wasn't interested in. So I was looking around for jobs. I was thinking

624

00:33:06,754 --> 00:33:10,594

[jason_apollo_voss]: about writing a book. I did write a book. Um, and I saw. I went to the c.

625

00:33:10,674 --> 00:33:14,114

[jason_apollo_voss]: F. A Institute Jobs Board and see if Institute was advertising for the

626

00:33:14,114 --> 00:33:16,914

[jason_apollo_voss]: role of content director, which you know, Uh, both of you, I think that

627

00:33:16,914 --> 00:33:19,874

[jason_apollo_voss]: I, I held that role. That's where I'm att, Sloan, as content,

628

00:33:20,034 --> 00:33:23,954

[jason_apollo_voss]: directctory, fancy, And what appealed to me about that role was something

629

00:33:24,194 --> 00:33:29,954

[jason_apollo_voss]: to the effect of Um. Your job is to make members wiser or smarter. Uh, by

630

00:33:30,114 --> 00:33:33,794

[jason_apollo_voss]: identifying compelling investment ideas or speakers that are new and

631

00:33:33,794 --> 00:33:36,674

[jason_apollo_voss]: cutting edge and you know, feature them througho. you know distribution

632

00:33:36,834 --> 00:33:40,434

[jason_apollo_voss]: of as well as if there, subjects you think should be being talked about,

633

00:33:40,594 --> 00:33:44,114

[jason_apollo_voss]: but aren't you? You are charged with developing that and the original job

634

00:33:44,194 --> 00:33:47,314

[jason_apollo_voss]: description and something like that. I was like. That is what I'm looking

635

00:33:47,394 --> 00:33:51,794

[jason_apollo_voss]: to do and I've you know, Call Ashby, knows this about me better than you

636

00:33:51,954 --> 00:33:55,394

[jason_apollo_voss]: do. Sloane, uh, I, I like the Jeddi K nights. I always kind of saw a C if

637

00:33:55,294 --> 00:33:56,294

[jason_apollo_voss]: they introduceed

638

00:33:55,740 --> 00:33:56,740

[ash_b]: Yep,

639

00:33:56,194 --> 00:33:57,314

[jason_apollo_voss]: the Jatites, But

640

00:33:57,130 --> 00:33:59,930

[sloane]: I mean, yeah. you know before you start working there,

641

00:34:00,194 --> 00:34:02,914

[jason_apollo_voss]: yeah, exactly, and then I kind of thought they were the Catholic Church,

642

00:34:03,154 --> 00:34:06,994

[jason_apollo_voss]: but that's the whole mother story. Um, you know, they're similar, right,

643

00:34:07,394 --> 00:34:09,154

[jason_apollo_voss]: right, A correct genderating orders

644

00:34:07,760 --> 00:34:10,400

[ash_b]: I think Ana and Sky Walkaler had the same reaction.

645

00:34:13,154 --> 00:34:20,514

[jason_apollo_voss]: Toche th t th. But anyway I joint see iff to literally, day two, Uh of me

646

00:34:20,674 --> 00:34:25,234

[jason_apollo_voss]: joining. I sent an email to Rob Gown, who was Uh you. At one point four,

647

00:34:25,554 --> 00:34:30,194

[jason_apollo_voss]: both of our supervisors, uh, Sn to mine, and I said, uh, my detection, I

648

00:34:30,274 --> 00:34:34,514

[jason_apollo_voss]: think is a uh skill. I said, We are super dependent upon the statemention

649

00:34:34,674 --> 00:34:38,914

[jason_apollo_voss]: forth from the mouths of management of businesses, and we have no skill

650

00:34:39,234 --> 00:34:42,434

[jason_apollo_voss]: set on how to do this. At the very least we should develop. We should

651

00:34:42,594 --> 00:34:45,474

[jason_apollo_voss]: work with people on how do you interview people or something, And I was

652

00:34:45,554 --> 00:34:49,314

[jason_apollo_voss]: interested in a whole suite of interview techniques, and literally, like

653

00:34:49,554 --> 00:34:54,354

[jason_apollo_voss]: four weeks later I started working with Doctor Maria Hartwig, one of the

654

00:34:54,434 --> 00:34:58,914

[jason_apollo_voss]: few deception scientists in the world. There, Not a lot. And we we sa

655

00:34:59,154 --> 00:35:01,714

[jason_apollo_voss]: down. We outline like if we want to change the world through lie

656

00:35:01,874 --> 00:35:06,194

[jason_apollo_voss]: detection, What do we have to do And over Luunnch at Landmark at Uh,

657

00:35:06,834 --> 00:35:11,314

[jason_apollo_voss]: Columbus Circle and Central Park South, Uh, the restaurant. We, on a

658

00:35:11,394 --> 00:35:15,314

[jason_apollo_voss]: napkin, outlined what we wanted to do, and so it's a subject I've always

659

00:35:15,474 --> 00:35:18,834

[jason_apollo_voss]: been interested in from my days as a fund manager, and then in the last

660

00:35:19,154 --> 00:35:23,154

[jason_apollo_voss]: couple of years I in, in my being a deception scientist and a published

661

00:35:23,314 --> 00:35:26,994

[jason_apollo_voss]: deception scientist, I knew that there you could use computing to to

662

00:35:27,154 --> 00:35:31,234

[jason_apollo_voss]: solve this problem. And uh, so, a couple of years ago I had a venture

663

00:35:31,394 --> 00:35:35,714

[jason_apollo_voss]: capital consulting client. say hey, we're getting burned by our hires. We

664

00:35:35,794 --> 00:35:39,714

[jason_apollo_voss]: keep hiring people who have fibbed on there in the recruiting process.

665

00:35:40,114 --> 00:35:43,154

[jason_apollo_voss]: Can you help me? And so that's how data started? Whereas I developed

666

00:35:43,314 --> 00:35:47,874

[jason_apollo_voss]: something based on reading the scientific literature and applying my own.

667

00:35:49,874 --> 00:35:54,114

[jason_apollo_voss]: I don't know how to characterize Uss. Here's a lukewarm opinion. Um. I

668

00:35:54,194 --> 00:35:59,154

[jason_apollo_voss]: would call myself Uh, mildly quantity, you know. And so I applied what I

669

00:35:59,234 --> 00:36:00,514

[jason_apollo_voss]: know from how to solve quap

670

00:36:00,110 --> 00:36:01,110

[sloane]: '.

671

00:36:00,754 --> 00:36:04,674

[jason_apollo_voss]: problems in investing to what the academics are doing, and sort of

672

00:36:04,834 --> 00:36:07,874

[jason_apollo_voss]: developed data, and it's evolved over time. but like I did it fairly

673

00:36:07,954 --> 00:36:11,794

[jason_apollo_voss]: quickly, like in a couple of weekends I had an algorithm ready that

674

00:36:11,874 --> 00:36:16,194

[jason_apollo_voss]: actually s helped them solve their problems. So that's the the long long

675

00:36:16,294 --> 00:36:17,294

[jason_apollo_voss]: story there.

676

00:36:18,080 --> 00:36:21,840

[ash_b]: What? just for the like, the benefit of everybody out there that is wondering what

677

00:36:21,840 --> 00:36:27,440

[ash_b]: the heck these algorithms are tracking. What is the difference between deception and

678

00:36:27,680 --> 00:36:32,720

[ash_b]: ▁lying? And what? Like what it is the algorithm doing That's better than others. And

679

00:36:32,800 --> 00:36:35,440

[ash_b]: how much better is it? Just give us some more contexts. There.

680

00:36:35,714 --> 00:36:40,114

[jason_apollo_voss]: Yeah, so so thank you for asking. Um, So W, Technically we're looking at

681

00:36:40,194 --> 00:36:45,714

[jason_apollo_voss]: what it call psycho linguistic ▁ cues, which are essentially behaviors of

682

00:36:45,874 --> 00:36:49,874

[jason_apollo_voss]: an individual revealed through their language use. So a, as an example,

683

00:36:50,294 --> 00:36:51,294

[jason_apollo_voss]: Uh,

684

00:36:51,954 --> 00:36:56,594

[jason_apollo_voss]: when asked to recall a memory, Uh, truth tellers reference in actual

685

00:36:56,754 --> 00:37:00,274

[jason_apollo_voss]: memory, and usually it's a memory of them moving through time and space,

686

00:37:00,834 --> 00:37:06,354

[jason_apollo_voss]: And so they use uh, motion verbs, and they use time oriented verbs like

687

00:37:06,674 --> 00:37:10,994

[jason_apollo_voss]: before, After sense. You know those kinds of things later. Uh, liars

688

00:37:11,394 --> 00:37:15,154

[jason_apollo_voss]: manufacture it and they're abstracting and they don't use those kinds of

689

00:37:15,234 --> 00:37:18,514

[jason_apollo_voss]: details. So that that's a a difference you know between lawers and twof

690

00:37:18,914 --> 00:37:21,954

[jason_apollo_voss]: and data we're looking at more than thirty of those psycho linguistic ▁

691

00:37:21,934 --> 00:37:22,934

[jason_apollo_voss]: cues, all of which have

692

00:37:22,620 --> 00:37:23,620

[ash_b]: Interesting.

693

00:37:22,994 --> 00:37:26,354

[jason_apollo_voss]: been Uh, identified as statistically significant, Um. The difference

694

00:37:26,754 --> 00:37:30,754

[jason_apollo_voss]: between liars and deceivers or lies and deception is something actually

695

00:37:30,994 --> 00:37:36,434

[jason_apollo_voss]: that the academics uh, obsess over, and they've been a great lenks to

696

00:37:36,674 --> 00:37:40,434

[jason_apollo_voss]: define what technically is a lie. The difference in deception, Lie is

697

00:37:40,754 --> 00:37:45,234

[jason_apollo_voss]: sort of uh, intent and damage done. So,

698

00:37:46,434 --> 00:37:52,114

[jason_apollo_voss]: for example, uh, if if your spouse or significant other says, do I look

699

00:37:52,274 --> 00:37:54,194

[jason_apollo_voss]: good in this outfit for the evening,

700

00:37:54,500 --> 00:37:55,500

[ash_b]: Yes,

701

00:37:54,914 --> 00:38:00,514

[jason_apollo_voss]: and do you say yes? But you really mean no. the academics would say

702

00:38:00,674 --> 00:38:04,194

[jason_apollo_voss]: That's really more about deception than a lie. And the reason why is it

703

00:38:04,274 --> 00:38:05,314

[jason_apollo_voss]: benefits both parties

704

00:38:06,674 --> 00:38:11,154

[jason_apollo_voss]: that that that whye actually benefits your your supposedly sensitive

705

00:38:11,554 --> 00:38:15,714

[jason_apollo_voss]: spouse, Though they didn't get a vote. Uh, really, and it protects you as

706

00:38:15,794 --> 00:38:19,154

[jason_apollo_voss]: well. Um, Whereass a lot of benefits only one party. So that's one of the

707

00:38:19,234 --> 00:38:22,914

[jason_apollo_voss]: technical ways that they've tried to draw the line and say this is bad.

708

00:38:23,154 --> 00:38:27,874

[jason_apollo_voss]: This is semi bad, but not entirely bad. you know. Um, so that's that's

709

00:38:28,114 --> 00:38:31,874

[jason_apollo_voss]: That's the academic way of describing them. Oh, oh, you askedk me about

710

00:38:32,114 --> 00:38:36,594

[jason_apollo_voss]: improvement. So, um, uh, data, Uh, there, there' a a piece of research

711

00:38:36,994 --> 00:38:40,674

[jason_apollo_voss]: done in January this year that looked at expert's ability to surface

712

00:38:40,754 --> 00:38:46,274

[jason_apollo_voss]: deception by reading texts of any kind, Right, and they and I, I don't

713

00:38:46,514 --> 00:38:50,034

[jason_apollo_voss]: remember. the. S. what? What the variety was in the sample Like? Was it

714

00:38:50,274 --> 00:38:54,114

[jason_apollo_voss]: scientific papers? essays? I, I don't remember, but they human beings

715

00:38:54,274 --> 00:38:58,834

[jason_apollo_voss]: came in at exactly fifty percent accurate in surfacing deception, So here

716

00:38:58,994 --> 00:39:03,234

[jason_apollo_voss]: Ive got a I've got an old fiftypence or fifty shilling point Here my

717

00:39:03,234 --> 00:39:05,554

[jason_apollo_voss]: desk. I like it because they have seven sides anyway.

718

00:39:05,140 --> 00:39:06,140

[ash_b]: Yeah,

719

00:39:06,114 --> 00:39:11,074

[jason_apollo_voss]: fifty percent is flipping that coin rank. It's not very good. Uh data. We

720

00:39:11,154 --> 00:39:14,434

[jason_apollo_voss]: are eighty seven a half percent accurate for word samples of eight

721

00:39:14,674 --> 00:39:18,514

[jason_apollo_voss]: hundred and fifty, Um, and we're able to assess much much faster. We're

722

00:39:18,594 --> 00:39:22,114

[jason_apollo_voss]: ninety, nine point nine, nine, seven percent faster than people. Based on

723

00:39:22,274 --> 00:39:26,114

[jason_apollo_voss]: clock speed tests, we've done. Um. Humans can read about a hundred and

724

00:39:26,114 --> 00:39:29,474

[jason_apollo_voss]: twenty five words a second. We can assess seventy thousand four hundred

725

00:39:29,714 --> 00:39:33,634

[jason_apollo_voss]: words per second and with a much higher accuracy, so that that's why this

726

00:39:33,600 --> 00:39:40,480

[ash_b]: some of the. I feel like there was a story in a news outlet recently about Uh ensurer

727

00:39:33,614 --> 00:39:34,614

[jason_apollo_voss]: is incing.

728

00:39:40,800 --> 00:39:47,280

[ash_b]: that was claiming to use facial, um, recognition software to spot fraudulent

729

00:39:47,260 --> 00:39:48,260

[ash_b]: behavior.

730

00:39:50,080 --> 00:39:51,760

[ash_b]: Is that a good technology? like?

731

00:39:52,880 --> 00:39:55,280

[ash_b]: How should we think about all? Are you guys like that technology?

732

00:39:56,774 --> 00:39:57,774

[jason_apollo_voss]: No,

733

00:39:57,440 --> 00:39:59,120

[ash_b]: You guys? I mean, are we, are we?

734

00:39:58,034 --> 00:40:02,434

[jason_apollo_voss]: No, yeah, yeah, exact talk. I, That's a tea ball question. That's almost

735

00:40:02,594 --> 00:40:05,234

[jason_apollo_voss]: like Jason. You're a supportive active management kind of a question.

736

00:40:05,220 --> 00:40:06,220

[ash_b]: Yeah,

737

00:40:07,234 --> 00:40:08,994

[jason_apollo_voss]: So so no, the a.

738

00:40:08,720 --> 00:40:10,560

[ash_b]: we. we have already established that bias. Here

739

00:40:10,570 --> 00:40:14,170

[sloane]: Yeah, I mean this is the. This is the unofficial title of his spotcast is the

740

00:40:13,990 --> 00:40:14,990

[sloane]: related party

741

00:40:14,890 --> 00:40:16,970

[sloane]: transaction or the related party podcast?

742

00:40:15,060 --> 00:40:16,060

[ash_b]: we are all,

743

00:40:17,120 --> 00:40:21,040

[ash_b]: and we have a pirate at the top that talks about all the conflicts we have, So

744

00:40:20,594 --> 00:40:24,034

[jason_apollo_voss]: Oh yeah, what? so what? we'? We're letying the bare right, which is

745

00:40:24,194 --> 00:40:28,354

[jason_apollo_voss]: better than many. Do, uh, let let's just be Uh, full confession. Um, so

746

00:40:28,914 --> 00:40:33,234

[jason_apollo_voss]: no, um, the academic literature. Sh, And it. it started Nineteen fifty

747

00:40:33,554 --> 00:40:37,314

[jason_apollo_voss]: eight, which is looking at facial takegs, body language, vocal

748

00:40:37,474 --> 00:40:40,754

[jason_apollo_voss]: intonation, All that kind of jazz and literally hundreds of these things

749

00:40:40,914 --> 00:40:44,994

[jason_apollo_voss]: have been examined Starting nineteen fifty eight and the global average

750

00:40:45,154 --> 00:40:48,994

[jason_apollo_voss]: has revealed the meta analysis, which is a study of studies is fif four

751

00:40:49,154 --> 00:40:53,714

[jason_apollo_voss]: per cent, and in investments, Uh, which is the research I did with Maria,

752

00:40:54,034 --> 00:40:57,554

[jason_apollo_voss]: Uh, which was a resulting a journal, behavior, Fiance article in finances

753

00:40:57,714 --> 00:41:00,994

[jason_apollo_voss]: were even worse. We're just fifty one point eight percent accurate. Uh,

754

00:41:01,474 --> 00:41:05,634

[jason_apollo_voss]: when we rely on these kinds of ▁ cues, and by the way, we're even worse

755

00:41:05,794 --> 00:41:08,754

[jason_apollo_voss]: than that because we're only fifty one point eight percent accurate

756

00:41:08,834 --> 00:41:12,434

[jason_apollo_voss]: because we have an over sixty percent truth byas, So because we guess

757

00:41:12,754 --> 00:41:16,594

[jason_apollo_voss]: truth way more than we should, we' really right on the truths, but were

758

00:41:16,834 --> 00:41:22,514

[jason_apollo_voss]: really wrong on when somebody iss deceiving, Um, So anyway, uh, no, the

759

00:41:22,594 --> 00:41:26,434

[jason_apollo_voss]: facial recognition that this insurance company is using. Most likely the

760

00:41:26,514 --> 00:41:30,914

[jason_apollo_voss]: software is picking up on the facial cues. The promise is too twofold.

761

00:41:32,274 --> 00:41:37,554

[jason_apollo_voss]: Either those cues are not uniquely associated with deception or ▁ly,

762

00:41:37,874 --> 00:41:42,194

[jason_apollo_voss]: which is the bigger of the problems, or too, they are so subtle is to

763

00:41:42,514 --> 00:41:47,554

[jason_apollo_voss]: defy capturing the former. The the accused not being adgor of ▁lying is

764

00:41:47,554 --> 00:41:50,914

[jason_apollo_voss]: the bigger one. That theory of using body language, their multiple

765

00:41:51,074 --> 00:41:56,034

[jason_apollo_voss]: assumptions In the theory, one of them is that as the liars feel anxiety

766

00:41:56,194 --> 00:42:00,594

[jason_apollo_voss]: when they lie, and if we look for or we create conditions under which you

767

00:42:00,754 --> 00:42:04,914

[jason_apollo_voss]: feel greater anxiety, we create a gap between the truth teller and the

768

00:42:05,074 --> 00:42:09,234

[jason_apollo_voss]: deceiver, such that the deception is more noticeable, so I think they're

769

00:42:09,314 --> 00:42:12,194

[jason_apollo_voss]: probably. If they're picking up on anything accurately, they're picking

770

00:42:12,274 --> 00:42:16,994

[jason_apollo_voss]: up on anxiety. but anxiety is not the same thing as deception. So for

771

00:42:17,154 --> 00:42:20,674

[jason_apollo_voss]: example, in a job interview or on a podcast, if somebody's examining

772

00:42:20,834 --> 00:42:24,274

[jason_apollo_voss]: right now, if I weren't as polished as I am, have done a lot of this. Is

773

00:42:24,354 --> 00:42:27,554

[jason_apollo_voss]: it possible I would feel anxious? Yeah, is that necessarily

774

00:42:27,220 --> 00:42:28,220

[ash_b]: Yeah,

775

00:42:27,634 --> 00:42:30,114

[jason_apollo_voss]: the case? I be deceiving, No, Is

776

00:42:29,790 --> 00:42:30,790

[sloane]: Yeah,

777

00:42:30,274 --> 00:42:34,354

[jason_apollo_voss]: it true in a job interview that I might be anxious? Yes, and by the way,

778

00:42:34,594 --> 00:42:37,074

[jason_apollo_voss]: some of these technologies they are being used are used in job

779

00:42:37,314 --> 00:42:41,394

[jason_apollo_voss]: interviews? Some organizations are using ▁zoo exclusively to see if job

780

00:42:41,634 --> 00:42:45,314

[jason_apollo_voss]: candids are deceiving them. I couldn't be more disheartened Honestly, And

781

00:42:45,474 --> 00:42:47,154

[jason_apollo_voss]: then the last misuse of this

782

00:42:48,194 --> 00:42:52,354

[jason_apollo_voss]: is. Uh. Police departments have wrongfully convicted people for a long

783

00:42:52,594 --> 00:42:55,474

[jason_apollo_voss]: time because they've read these ▁ cues and they've been trained on these

784

00:42:55,634 --> 00:42:59,954

[jason_apollo_voss]: cues and they think that they are seeing deception Uh in these settings

785

00:43:00,034 --> 00:43:02,914

[jason_apollo_voss]: when what they're really reading is anxiety. And I'll tell you what if

786

00:43:02,994 --> 00:43:06,754

[jason_apollo_voss]: you've ever been questioned by the police, Uh, when we lived in New York,

787

00:43:07,554 --> 00:43:09,794

[jason_apollo_voss]: Sn. I know you live in New York. I don't know if the police have ever

788

00:43:09,794 --> 00:43:12,114

[jason_apollo_voss]: knocked on your door to ask you questions about A.

789

00:43:11,830 --> 00:43:12,830

[sloane]: they wouldn't dare,

790

00:43:13,214 --> 00:43:14,214

[jason_apollo_voss]: I'm sorry.

791

00:43:14,270 --> 00:43:15,270

[sloane]: they wouldn't dare.

792

00:43:17,360 --> 00:43:19,680

[ash_b]: it's tell a dare sloide's, until they di.

793

00:43:19,394 --> 00:43:22,274

[jason_apollo_voss]: What you explore that way have to explore. I'm not sure why they would'

794

00:43:22,434 --> 00:43:25,794

[jason_apollo_voss]: dare, I don't have. I don't see as a prime imment to sort of a person.

795

00:43:26,674 --> 00:43:29,634

[jason_apollo_voss]: but anyway, when theynocked on our door because there' been like a theft

796

00:43:29,794 --> 00:43:33,234

[jason_apollo_voss]: in our building, our apartment building like I got nervous like I'm like.

797

00:43:32,870 --> 00:43:33,870

[sloane]: Yep.

798

00:43:33,394 --> 00:43:36,914

[jason_apollo_voss]: Well, why are they asking me? You know I hadn't didn anything

799

00:43:36,740 --> 00:43:37,740

[ash_b]: Yeah,

800

00:43:37,154 --> 00:43:40,194

[jason_apollo_voss]: to do soway I think with the police question, you have reason to being

801

00:43:40,094 --> 00:43:41,094

[jason_apollo_voss]: anxious

802

00:43:41,290 --> 00:43:45,210

[sloane]: well, and you know one of the things that I love about you know how data works is

803

00:43:45,210 --> 00:43:50,570

[sloane]: distinct from Mo. Those other technologyno work is you know, the cultural you know.

804

00:43:51,130 --> 00:43:57,050

[sloane]: Uh, underpinning of a habit is very difficult to kind of

805

00:43:58,090 --> 00:44:04,090

[sloane]: program some aggregate level logic to encapsulate right. So like Navajo. Uh, folks,

806

00:44:04,570 --> 00:44:08,810

[sloane]: for for instance, really don't like to make eye contact on speaking. Um, you know,

807

00:44:09,050 --> 00:44:13,210

[sloane]: and like that, those there are, you know, all sorts of differences like that. I mean

808

00:44:13,530 --> 00:44:18,170

[sloane]: it. It seems a little bit like a modern phonology, you know, Like the. That's the.

809

00:44:18,250 --> 00:44:22,330

[sloane]: you know, the antiquated discredited science where people are using scull shap to

810

00:44:22,490 --> 00:44:27,130

[sloane]: denote uh, criminality or whatever, to kind of use just like a video, And assume

811

00:44:27,210 --> 00:44:31,370

[sloane]: that the robot can like magically tell. I mean, I. I. I don't know for a fact, but I

812

00:44:31,370 --> 00:44:35,050

[sloane]: would imagine that a lot of white people seem to be telling the truth and a lot a

813

00:44:35,130 --> 00:44:37,850

[sloane]: lot of black people seem not to be telling the truth on those videos.

814

00:44:37,874 --> 00:44:41,714

[jason_apollo_voss]: slow. I'm going to steal Phnology. You have just uh, revealed to me a

815

00:44:41,794 --> 00:44:45,634

[jason_apollo_voss]: very good way of explaining why body language doesn't work in one fellow

816

00:44:45,794 --> 00:44:50,114

[jason_apollo_voss]: swoop that said, Upstairs in our bathroom I, my mom just gave Da and me

817

00:44:50,274 --> 00:44:54,434

[jason_apollo_voss]: as a an anniversary or no, it was Donw's birthday. Uh, cat phronology

818

00:44:54,674 --> 00:44:58,114

[jason_apollo_voss]: little statue, which we have sitting in our powder room, which is

819

00:44:57,210 --> 00:45:00,490

[sloane]: Oh, I love that. That's amazing.

820

00:44:58,014 --> 00:44:59,014

[jason_apollo_voss]: abdorable.

821

00:45:03,314 --> 00:45:07,634

[jason_apollo_voss]: Anyway, not a believer, but, but, but, uh, I do have a phreology cat

822

00:45:07,954 --> 00:45:09,714

[jason_apollo_voss]: statue My my powder room.

823

00:45:09,370 --> 00:45:14,570

[sloane]: Yeah, like a, as a bit as a bit. Um, The. so I guess you know my last question and

824

00:45:14,650 --> 00:45:18,010

[sloane]: there's a ▁zillion things we can talk about. But like you know, I, I can imagine

825

00:45:18,250 --> 00:45:22,730

[sloane]: some ways that I could use uh data to you know, assess investment decisions right,

826

00:45:22,890 --> 00:45:26,730

[sloane]: like I've had. I mean just this like I have a c, e, O, say something in writing, and

827

00:45:26,810 --> 00:45:30,730

[sloane]: then it turned out that they don't. really. You know. I think the S think you know

828

00:45:30,810 --> 00:45:34,170

[sloane]: in terms of their actions, The you know that the statements startly translated

829

00:45:34,330 --> 00:45:37,690

[sloane]: action, And you know I could see it being useful for that. But how how do you

830

00:45:37,850 --> 00:45:43,770

[sloane]: imagine Um data being used? Uh, you know by investment managers by the public at

831

00:45:43,850 --> 00:45:45,850

[sloane]: large. Um, and like, who's your client?

832

00:45:46,434 --> 00:45:50,914

[jason_apollo_voss]: Yeah, great question. When we sat down to think of use cases, Uh, we came

833

00:45:51,154 --> 00:45:56,194

[jason_apollo_voss]: up with like over forty just within investing. I think the biggest one is

834

00:45:56,514 --> 00:46:00,754

[jason_apollo_voss]: W. and this ties both parts of our conversation together. Right. We're

835

00:46:00,914 --> 00:46:04,354

[jason_apollo_voss]: talking about a consolidation within the active investment management

836

00:46:04,594 --> 00:46:09,394

[jason_apollo_voss]: business. Uh, and necessarily, those who want to remain active are going

837

00:46:09,554 --> 00:46:12,994

[jason_apollo_voss]: to. Unless they change a business model, they're going to try and c their

838

00:46:13,074 --> 00:46:17,954

[jason_apollo_voss]: expense ratio, but still deliver world class research result. So the

839

00:46:18,034 --> 00:46:22,514

[jason_apollo_voss]: first in primary use case is a Um. focusing of your human based

840

00:46:22,674 --> 00:46:27,154

[jason_apollo_voss]: intelligent resources onto the core problems. I think we would all agree

841

00:46:27,314 --> 00:46:30,434

[jason_apollo_voss]: as a pres screen on our entire investment universe. We'd like to

842

00:46:30,434 --> 00:46:33,234

[jason_apollo_voss]: eliminate all companies. They arere tempting to deceive, or

843

00:46:33,150 --> 00:46:34,150

[sloane]: Two?

844

00:46:33,554 --> 00:46:37,314

[jason_apollo_voss]: especially to lie to us. And so I think that's probably the primary use

845

00:46:37,474 --> 00:46:41,554

[jason_apollo_voss]: case in a massive time saver, and it gives you confidence of in a new way

846

00:46:41,714 --> 00:46:45,234

[jason_apollo_voss]: that your universe at least doesn't suffer from that Right now. It can

847

00:46:45,394 --> 00:46:49,074

[jason_apollo_voss]: focus on other questions, like competitive advantage. Do you know? Are

848

00:46:49,234 --> 00:46:52,914

[jason_apollo_voss]: they is the strategy? the business expanding the Moes is the management

849

00:46:53,074 --> 00:46:55,714

[jason_apollo_voss]: team, the proper management team to execute the vision of the business.

850

00:46:56,354 --> 00:47:01,314

[jason_apollo_voss]: Uh, are they properly uh, investing in things to deliver R o, i C, return

851

00:47:01,554 --> 00:47:03,234

[jason_apollo_voss]: on investor capital. Um,

852

00:47:04,594 --> 00:47:08,674

[jason_apollo_voss]: are are they uh, a good e, s, G candidate. Are they a good corporate

853

00:47:08,834 --> 00:47:11,954

[jason_apollo_voss]: actor? You know. whatever your it is, you're worrying about another one

854

00:47:12,114 --> 00:47:16,434

[jason_apollo_voss]: would be as a one time sort of uh, cleanliness test of your existing

855

00:47:16,594 --> 00:47:20,354

[jason_apollo_voss]: universe. right? The average number of portfolio holdings I think is a

856

00:47:20,354 --> 00:47:23,874

[jason_apollo_voss]: hundred and ten. Last I looked at that data, It's It's some big number

857

00:47:24,274 --> 00:47:28,354

[jason_apollo_voss]: and so I'm guessing there's something lurking in that portfolio you don't

858

00:47:28,434 --> 00:47:32,674

[jason_apollo_voss]: necessarily want in there. Um, and wouldn't you like to be able to uh,

859

00:47:32,994 --> 00:47:37,154

[jason_apollo_voss]: ask better questions of those, c, e Os, or just outright cell, but it

860

00:47:37,234 --> 00:47:41,154

[jason_apollo_voss]: could also be used as an investment, uh idea generator for a hedge fund

861

00:47:41,234 --> 00:47:44,754

[jason_apollo_voss]: that does shorting, for example, if I'm a shorter, I want to know these

862

00:47:45,634 --> 00:47:49,394

[jason_apollo_voss]: about the level of deception before the rest of the market does, and now

863

00:47:49,394 --> 00:47:53,314

[jason_apollo_voss]: it can scour a much bigger universe and turn my Uh,

864

00:47:54,354 --> 00:47:59,554

[jason_apollo_voss]: financial statement, an analyst expert, uh to to that problem based on a

865

00:47:59,714 --> 00:48:04,034

[jason_apollo_voss]: universe of probably very highly likely already committing fraud, Uh. And

866

00:48:04,194 --> 00:48:08,114

[jason_apollo_voss]: by the way, there's almost no competition for what we're doing, So you're

867

00:48:08,194 --> 00:48:11,154

[jason_apollo_voss]: go to be looking at a universe that maybe nobody else is, anyway. I could

868

00:48:11,234 --> 00:48:15,794

[jason_apollo_voss]: go on and on. Um, you know Ashby. I know you serve on a number of Uh

869

00:48:15,874 --> 00:48:19,554

[jason_apollo_voss]: boards and advised pensions. How about just examining like the board

870

00:48:19,894 --> 00:48:20,894

[jason_apollo_voss]: book, right? I?

871

00:48:20,580 --> 00:48:21,580

[ash_b]: yeah, yeah,

872

00:48:20,994 --> 00:48:24,914

[jason_apollo_voss]: I used to deliver the board book and those board books. Are you know,

873

00:48:25,074 --> 00:48:29,074

[jason_apollo_voss]: like eight hundred pages? Sometimes, uh, and I guarantee you no board

874

00:48:29,234 --> 00:48:31,954

[jason_apollo_voss]: member really reads every page. I bet they'd really like to ask

875

00:48:32,194 --> 00:48:34,594

[jason_apollo_voss]: thoughtful intelligent questions, but they don't even know where to

876

00:48:34,674 --> 00:48:38,994

[jason_apollo_voss]: begin. And so they're forced to sample that book. Usually it'd send a

877

00:48:39,074 --> 00:48:41,794

[jason_apollo_voss]: week ahead of time. They're forced to sample the book. Wouldn't it be

878

00:48:41,874 --> 00:48:45,314

[jason_apollo_voss]: nice to actually ask great questions on the key issue and the key areas?

879

00:48:46,080 --> 00:48:51,040

[ash_b]: absolutely. What a great use case. Um. you know, because a a lot of times management

880

00:48:51,200 --> 00:48:54,880

[ash_b]: of pension funds will inundate the board with so much information,

881

00:48:55,920 --> 00:49:00,800

[ash_b]: because then they can say well, you had the data, you know, and by data, I mean, just

882

00:49:01,120 --> 00:49:07,360

[ash_b]: like endless amounts of quantitative facts, and you know descriptive text around it.

883

00:49:07,520 --> 00:49:12,640

[ash_b]: If we could use the data algorithms in order to pinpoint deceptive text in that eight

884

00:49:12,800 --> 00:49:17,040

[ash_b]: hundred pages, Yeah, could really help boards spend time on things that are

885

00:49:16,820 --> 00:49:17,820

[ash_b]: important.

886

00:49:18,194 --> 00:49:22,194

[jason_apollo_voss]: Yeah, and like in a v C, and like, everybody goes to the private market

887

00:49:22,514 --> 00:49:25,954

[jason_apollo_voss]: or ors, the public market space, which I did naturally because I used to

888

00:49:26,034 --> 00:49:29,874

[jason_apollo_voss]: certain you know, compete in public markets, But think of the value in

889

00:49:29,954 --> 00:49:34,674

[jason_apollo_voss]: public markets with bond inventures. every bond issue is unique, Um, and

890

00:49:34,754 --> 00:49:38,514

[jason_apollo_voss]: a company may issue forty bonds like you, look at the cap table. In the

891

00:49:38,514 --> 00:49:42,994

[jason_apollo_voss]: bond footnote of many publicly traded firms, there may be sixty pieces of

892

00:49:43,074 --> 00:49:46,034

[jason_apollo_voss]: debt that they have issued for some of the bigger firms. Good luck

893

00:49:46,194 --> 00:49:49,634

[jason_apollo_voss]: reading through those adventures to see what. what bad news they've

894

00:49:49,714 --> 00:49:53,474

[jason_apollo_voss]: buried in the indenture. Who knows right so. but now, look at the private

895

00:49:53,794 --> 00:49:57,474

[jason_apollo_voss]: markets, look at like v. C. look at private equity. as when you mentioned

896

00:49:57,094 --> 00:49:58,094

[jason_apollo_voss]: P,

897

00:49:57,220 --> 00:49:58,220

[ash_b]: Yeah, yeah,

898

00:49:57,794 --> 00:50:01,954

[jason_apollo_voss]: E, there is no public market mechanism. There is sometimes no auditing

899

00:50:02,114 --> 00:50:07,154

[jason_apollo_voss]: mechanism for looking at financial results. Um. And so what do you turn

900

00:50:07,314 --> 00:50:11,394

[jason_apollo_voss]: to in those situations? and by the way right now, V C. there's so much

901

00:50:11,634 --> 00:50:15,074

[jason_apollo_voss]: capital in these funds. Thank you very much. I'm grateful for that fact.

902

00:50:15,634 --> 00:50:19,634

[jason_apollo_voss]: Um. but there's so much capital there. Do you really have time to

903

00:50:19,714 --> 00:50:23,154

[jason_apollo_voss]: underwrite deals with the same level of scrutiny that you did ten years

904

00:50:23,314 --> 00:50:24,354

[jason_apollo_voss]: ago? Probably

905

00:50:23,940 --> 00:50:24,940

[ash_b]: no,

906

00:50:24,374 --> 00:50:25,374

[jason_apollo_voss]: not.

907

00:50:25,520 --> 00:50:30,640

[ash_b]: and they have to move so much faster. I mean, because we're the top of the market and

908

00:50:30,720 --> 00:50:35,280

[ash_b]: the entrepreneurs get to dictate terms in many cases, And so the Vcs are making

909

00:50:35,760 --> 00:50:38,320

[ash_b]: commitments in two days instead of two weeks.

910

00:50:38,900 --> 00:50:39,900

[ash_b]: And

911

00:50:40,640 --> 00:50:46,320

[ash_b]: yeah, by almost by definition I have to cut corners. And so you expect four years

912

00:50:46,560 --> 00:50:51,440

[ash_b]: from now that you know the next decades Fairnoe will have emerged in this time period

913

00:50:51,760 --> 00:50:52,880

[ash_b]: and we just don't know it,

914

00:50:53,474 --> 00:50:56,514

[jason_apollo_voss]: Yeah, I think that's that's a fair point, so I think it's slowly. Answer

915

00:50:56,754 --> 00:50:59,154

[jason_apollo_voss]: to question. I think there' a lots of use cases, but we havent talked

916

00:50:59,234 --> 00:51:02,994

[jason_apollo_voss]: about like auditing. Uh, we haven't talked about insurance adjusting. we

917

00:51:03,074 --> 00:51:05,154

[jason_apollo_voss]: haven't talked about content. moderational.

918

00:51:05,440 --> 00:51:13,200

[ash_b]: ex, exfriends, ex boyfriendrry,

919

00:51:08,034 --> 00:51:11,394

[jason_apollo_voss]: No, absolutely not. Yes's, a good good point. Yeah, W. one of the things

920

00:51:11,474 --> 00:51:14,914

[jason_apollo_voss]: I'm really sensitive about is that phys. Yeah, no, No, it's all good.

921

00:51:15,474 --> 00:51:19,234

[jason_apollo_voss]: Another te baall question. Um, it could really be misused right, Um,

922

00:51:19,694 --> 00:51:20,694

[jason_apollo_voss]: because

923

00:51:21,394 --> 00:51:25,474

[jason_apollo_voss]: we're trying to use sell u. S. target market, target market is a person

924

00:51:25,874 --> 00:51:27,554

[jason_apollo_voss]: making a an important

925

00:51:28,594 --> 00:51:33,154

[jason_apollo_voss]: decision at scale by, at scale. We're talking significant outcome

926

00:51:33,314 --> 00:51:36,914

[jason_apollo_voss]: relative to a business right. so that could be hundreds of thousands of

927

00:51:36,994 --> 00:51:39,874

[jason_apollo_voss]: dollars or millions of dollars. like my average straight side. Use trade

928

00:51:39,954 --> 00:51:42,914

[jason_apollo_voss]: ticket used to be like ten mill right, and that's small. That's small.

929

00:51:43,154 --> 00:51:46,754

[jason_apollo_voss]: Some firms issue like a hundred million dollar trade tickets. So you,

930

00:51:46,994 --> 00:51:50,594

[jason_apollo_voss]: it's an assist in those situations where people are wearing their big

931

00:51:50,834 --> 00:51:55,634

[jason_apollo_voss]: person pants or skirts or whatever, Um, And that's what we aim to help.

932

00:51:55,874 --> 00:52:00,594

[jason_apollo_voss]: Um, we don't want this used in divorce cases, we don't want to used uh f

933

00:52:00,994 --> 00:52:04,594

[jason_apollo_voss]: job interview settings. That's a no. No, because our whole effort is

934

00:52:04,674 --> 00:52:08,274

[jason_apollo_voss]: grounded in compassion. We're trying to make the world more truthful, so

935

00:52:08,434 --> 00:52:13,314

[jason_apollo_voss]: that we're not burned by the malfeason of something. and by the way the

936

00:52:13,394 --> 00:52:17,474

[jason_apollo_voss]: research thecentic research serves, we all lie. And so because I know

937

00:52:17,554 --> 00:52:20,754

[jason_apollo_voss]: that, based on the signi of me being a deception scientist, I have

938

00:52:20,834 --> 00:52:22,994

[jason_apollo_voss]: compassion, right, we're all deceived, we're all

939

00:52:22,740 --> 00:52:23,740

[ash_b]: Mhm,

940

00:52:23,074 --> 00:52:26,514

[jason_apollo_voss]: liyars. We, we do it one point eight times per day on average, so

941

00:52:27,174 --> 00:52:28,174

[jason_apollo_voss]: anyway,

942

00:52:28,560 --> 00:52:32,640

[ash_b]: I'm not ▁lying. When I say it was awesome having you on the free money poadcast.

943

00:52:33,290 --> 00:52:36,730

[sloane]: Yeah, absolutely fabulous, Jason, thank you so much for coming on.

944

00:52:35,840 --> 00:52:38,880

[ash_b]: we're going to have you back be cause we love having you here, but you know

945

00:52:38,590 --> 00:52:39,590

[sloane]: Yes,

946

00:52:39,040 --> 00:52:44,320

[ash_b]: once you're live with data and your sell subscriptions will get you back on and will

947

00:52:45,040 --> 00:52:48,000

[ash_b]: kind of understand the exact use cases so you can put

948

00:52:47,750 --> 00:52:48,750

[sloane]: Yep,

949

00:52:47,900 --> 00:52:48,900

[ash_b]: you out there,

950

00:52:48,674 --> 00:52:52,354

[jason_apollo_voss]: well, I would love on the hold of a mi to both of you, Um, thank you both

951

00:52:52,514 --> 00:52:55,634

[jason_apollo_voss]: for fighting a good fight. Like the Free Money podcast, You guys cover

952

00:52:55,954 --> 00:52:59,314

[jason_apollo_voss]: interesting subjects that I don't see covered elsewhere. Like usually the

953

00:52:59,394 --> 00:53:04,514

[jason_apollo_voss]: vessel, Podcas is what to invest in now or let's let's sit the fire. You

954

00:53:04,754 --> 00:53:08,594

[jason_apollo_voss]: do a firesight chat with somebody who's made money, Um, and even actually

955

00:53:08,914 --> 00:53:12,274

[jason_apollo_voss]: covered some of the nuts of bolts and some of the gritty bits of the

956

00:53:12,254 --> 00:53:13,254

[jason_apollo_voss]: business Well done.

957

00:53:13,670 --> 00:53:14,670

[sloane]: thank you.

958

00:53:14,480 --> 00:53:15,840

[ash_b]: Thank you so much, Jason.

959

00:53:15,654 --> 00:53:16,654

[jason_apollo_voss]: Of course,

960

00:53:15,700 --> 00:53:16,700

[ash_b]: All right,

961

00:53:16,090 --> 00:53:20,090

[sloane]: Yeah, and what you know, Yeah, Invest Vean would will be a a very happy early

962

00:53:20,410 --> 00:53:22,010

[sloane]: subscriber whenever you get around. Do

963

00:53:21,734 --> 00:53:22,734

[jason_apollo_voss]: all right

964

00:53:22,090 --> 00:53:23,610

[sloane]: it, and whateverever we can afford it

965

00:53:23,554 --> 00:53:27,554

[jason_apollo_voss]: co, thanks for happening, Guys say go goy and go

966

00:53:27,150 --> 00:53:28,150

[sloane]: By

967

00:53:27,854 --> 00:53:28,854

[jason_apollo_voss]: bye.

968

00:53:28,430 --> 00:53:29,430

[sloane]: thank you,

969

00:53:31,290 --> 00:53:37,450

[sloane]: I have a a great Jasonoss story. Uh that I will some raise this with which I like, I

970

00:53:37,530 --> 00:53:42,090

[sloane]: think is the story of how he came to see if a institute told from our our boss. Uh,

971

00:53:42,260 --> 00:53:43,260

[ash_b]: Yeah,

972

00:53:42,890 --> 00:53:47,050

[sloane]: The So you know Contentt, director C. If institute right, See if Institute is an

973

00:53:47,130 --> 00:53:51,930

[sloane]: incredibly conservative organization. Um, you know somebody, Uh, described it as

974

00:53:52,010 --> 00:53:55,130

[sloane]: more establishment that Goldman Sachs and I was just like. Yeah, that's probably

975

00:53:55,190 --> 00:53:56,190

[sloane]: right. Um,

976

00:53:57,290 --> 00:54:04,490

[sloane]: and uh, So Jason shows up for his interview at C F. A institute in like, uh, I. I. I

977

00:54:04,570 --> 00:54:08,010

[sloane]: forget exactly what Rob City was wearing, but it you know he hadn't shaved. He was.

978

00:54:08,170 --> 00:54:12,570

[sloane]: It wasn't wearing A to a Uh, A Perm, Or if he was ring tie, he was wearing one of

979

00:54:12,650 --> 00:54:14,170

[sloane]: his very unusual ties.

980

00:54:13,780 --> 00:54:14,780

[ash_b]: right, right,

981

00:54:14,970 --> 00:54:21,530

[sloane]: Um, and his business card is a twenty four sided, Um, like starbirs, That's circular

982

00:54:22,490 --> 00:54:26,250

[sloane]: and it says like Jason, a Pavoss on the front of it. I still, I have one of these

983

00:54:26,410 --> 00:54:30,250

[sloane]: like on my like mood board, Um, and on the back of just this balance, you know, and

984

00:54:30,250 --> 00:54:34,650

[sloane]: of course everyone else who shows up uh to interview for this job is like you know

985

00:54:35,050 --> 00:54:37,290

[sloane]: very much out of the ▁j P. Morgan mold. Uh,

986

00:54:38,810 --> 00:54:42,330

[sloane]: you know, and thank God they went with Jason. I think the whole investment profess

987

00:54:42,570 --> 00:54:46,410

[sloane]: I, I certainly am un, uh, you know, completely changed as a result of

988

00:54:43,540 --> 00:54:44,540

[ash_b]: I know

989

00:54:46,570 --> 00:54:48,170

[sloane]: getting to know that guy. Yeah,

990

00:54:46,640 --> 00:54:50,640

[ash_b]: I have been, too. I have to say I I've been working really close to. I mean, you know

991

00:54:50,960 --> 00:54:55,120

[ash_b]: this is the related party's poadcast. So you know, like we. I've been working with

992

00:54:55,280 --> 00:55:01,040

[ash_b]: Jason for six, six or nine months now on on this project and Ive learned so much. The

993

00:55:01,120 --> 00:55:05,360

[ash_b]: dude is just next level on a lot of different fronts. So and that just kind of

994

00:55:05,360 --> 00:55:10,560

[ash_b]: trickled out in the podcast where like, he's got frameworks and analogies for for

995

00:55:10,720 --> 00:55:12,800

[ash_b]: like hundreds of other things, so we got.

996

00:55:12,570 --> 00:55:16,490

[sloane]: oh my God, Yeah, and the, I mean the the book we wrote together. the C. F. a

997

00:55:16,730 --> 00:55:21,210

[sloane]: investment idea, a generation guy. There's a link on his side and on on invest. van.

998

00:55:21,850 --> 00:55:25,610

[sloane]: Um, but it. I mean, it's like I. I. I've been re reading it because it's now a part

999

00:55:25,690 --> 00:55:27,370

[sloane]: of my process and we,

1000

00:55:27,140 --> 00:55:28,140

[ash_b]: Yeah,

1001

00:55:27,530 --> 00:55:30,090

[sloane]: we went all over the place. I can't believe let us publish that thing.

1002

00:55:30,640 --> 00:55:33,760

[ash_b]: Well because he said he was good. It was over his dead body, right.

1003

00:55:35,450 --> 00:55:38,330

[sloane]: Whoa that that was. Uh, that was a slightly later one that was once

1004

00:55:37,940 --> 00:55:38,940

[ash_b]: Oh,

1005

00:55:38,410 --> 00:55:42,090

[sloane]: we had already. you know, like kind of broken a couple of heads. Um,

1006

00:55:42,160 --> 00:55:44,480

[ash_b]: but he's building stuff, which is hard

1007

00:55:45,130 --> 00:55:46,410

[sloane]: he's building stuff, which is hard.

1008

00:55:45,200 --> 00:55:48,480

[ash_b]: and that brings us to our de segment

1009

00:55:50,310 --> 00:55:51,310

[sloane]: Oop.

1010

00:55:53,230 --> 00:55:54,230

[sloane]: Ah,

1011

00:55:55,070 --> 00:55:56,070

[sloane]: yeah,

1012

00:55:58,090 --> 00:55:59,530

[sloane]: building stuff is hard. Uh.

1013

00:55:59,040 --> 00:56:04,000

[ash_b]: building stuff hard. This is the part of the show where we reflect on how hard it is

1014

00:56:04,160 --> 00:56:09,440

[ash_b]: to build stuff. And well, you're about to go. Let me tell you that I was laughing to

1015

00:56:09,680 --> 00:56:16,960

[ash_b]: myself that if Jason is successful, he will take the whole fake it till you make it

1016

00:56:17,200 --> 00:56:18,720

[ash_b]: world of Silicon Valley

1017

00:56:19,070 --> 00:56:20,070

[sloane]: oh. Oh, my god.

1018

00:56:19,760 --> 00:56:24,240

[ash_b]: and make it harder. So Jason is making it harder to build stuff. Or

1019

00:56:24,470 --> 00:56:25,470

[sloane]: Mm,

1020

00:56:25,360 --> 00:56:28,800

[ash_b]: maybe maybe he's making it easier for those of us to think we're building real stuff

1021

00:56:29,340 --> 00:56:30,340

[ash_b]: because

1022

00:56:29,790 --> 00:56:30,790

[sloane]: I think so.

1023

00:56:30,480 --> 00:56:34,880

[ash_b]: people will spot us and be like. That's not the fake stuff. That's the real stuff. So

1024

00:56:35,380 --> 00:56:36,380

[ash_b]: um,

1025

00:56:35,850 --> 00:56:39,050

[sloane]: yeah, I, I mean, I, I think so like. I. I think you know. there's like this culture

1026

00:56:39,210 --> 00:56:40,890

[sloane]: of like fake metrics or vanity

1027

00:56:40,820 --> 00:56:41,820

[ash_b]: that's right.

1028

00:56:40,970 --> 00:56:45,770

[sloane]: metrics that you know. Data seems aimed right squarely at. You know where people

1029

00:56:46,010 --> 00:56:49,290

[sloane]: like show up in like, kind of do statistical vomit, and then'd be like, Oh yeah,

1030

00:56:49,370 --> 00:56:51,610

[sloane]: therefore I'm a good investment, Um.

1031

00:56:51,040 --> 00:56:54,080

[ash_b]: That's a good name for either a new Startu or a band.

1032

00:56:54,730 --> 00:56:55,770

[sloane]: statistical vomit,

1033

00:56:55,620 --> 00:56:56,620

[ash_b]: Yes,

1034

00:56:55,870 --> 00:56:56,870

[sloane]: uh,

1035

00:56:58,180 --> 00:56:59,180

[ash_b]: Okay,

1036

00:56:58,430 --> 00:56:59,430

[sloane]: uh,

1037

00:56:58,960 --> 00:57:02,320

[ash_b]: subsidiary, free money. When we, when we really hit a big time.

1038

00:57:00,970 --> 00:57:05,930

[sloane]: yeah, exactly when we finally get our Vc investment, and uh, you know it gets so

1039

00:57:06,170 --> 00:57:09,050

[sloane]: back on the phone. Um, what's been heard this month? Um?

1040

00:57:10,090 --> 00:57:15,370

[sloane]: well, I, uh, I actually had this amazing. uh. it took this amazing decision to not

1041

00:57:15,450 --> 00:57:18,730

[sloane]: only uh, go off my anti depressant, which it turns out I'm allergic to,

1042

00:57:18,500 --> 00:57:19,500

[ash_b]: Oh,

1043

00:57:19,370 --> 00:57:23,850

[sloane]: um, but also deconstruct my office and rebuild it. Um. in the court.

1044

00:57:23,040 --> 00:57:25,920

[ash_b]: were those two uh decisions interlinked

1045

00:57:26,730 --> 00:57:30,330

[sloane]: I, you know, I don't think so. I, I wanted a bigger desk, Um, and this

1046

00:57:30,020 --> 00:57:31,020

[ash_b]: Okay,

1047

00:57:30,410 --> 00:57:32,010

[sloane]: one's a lot nicer. Uh,

1048

00:57:33,610 --> 00:57:38,250

[sloane]: but um, but yeah, I would say like, hypothetically and I had no control over this

1049

00:57:38,410 --> 00:57:42,170

[sloane]: because uh, unfortunately it hasn't really played into performance or anything like

1050

00:57:42,250 --> 00:57:46,410

[sloane]: that. but um, the yeah. I mean, if it turns out you're allergic to your

1051

00:57:46,490 --> 00:57:49,210

[sloane]: antiimpressant, try to not figure that out

1052

00:57:50,030 --> 00:57:51,030

[sloane]: in

1053

00:57:50,180 --> 00:57:51,180

[ash_b]: yeah,

1054

00:57:50,650 --> 00:57:52,970

[sloane]: the first in the first month of launching your business.

1055

00:57:52,740 --> 00:57:53,740

[ash_b]: yeah,

1056

00:57:53,210 --> 00:57:54,410

[sloane]: that's that's that's my thing.

1057

00:57:54,723 --> 00:59:53,043

[mediaboard_sounds]: Ssssssssssssss,

1058

00:57:55,200 --> 00:57:59,520

[ash_b]: I'm sorry to hear that. How uh are have you been doing some investments with the

1059

00:57:59,600 --> 00:58:01,840

[ash_b]: money I gave you? I haven't. I haveve' noted that

1060

00:58:01,450 --> 00:58:04,570

[sloane]: Uh, yeah, yeah, totally totally invested it. Yeah, definitely invested

1061

00:58:04,500 --> 00:58:05,500

[ash_b]: so invested.

1062

00:58:04,650 --> 00:58:09,530

[sloane]: it. Yeah, no, uh, yeah, no, honestly, um, you know one of the things that I've been.

1063

00:58:09,690 --> 00:58:13,210

[sloane]: You know, when you start thinking about the investiging hypothesis, what's tricky

1064

00:58:13,370 --> 00:58:16,090

[sloane]: about it? I think to a lot of people as they think. Okay, so you're investing in

1065

00:58:16,070 --> 00:58:17,070

[sloane]: protein, which

1066

00:58:16,580 --> 00:58:17,580

[ash_b]: M.

1067

00:58:17,050 --> 00:58:20,650

[sloane]: is not the deal. The deal is, we're investing in stuff that doesn't do cruelty to

1068

00:58:20,730 --> 00:58:22,090

[sloane]: other stuff. Um,

1069

00:58:22,260 --> 00:58:23,260

[ash_b]: Okay,

1070

00:58:22,730 --> 00:58:29,130

[sloane]: you know, so the like it has to be, you know, not just on the net, but on the gross

1071

00:58:29,290 --> 00:58:32,810

[sloane]: addited to society in my criteria, right, Um, and

1072

00:58:32,420 --> 00:58:33,420

[ash_b]: Yeah,

1073

00:58:33,370 --> 00:58:36,570

[sloane]: you know I, what I would say is like, I mean, our benchmark is the Russell Three

1074

00:58:36,630 --> 00:58:37,630

[sloane]: thousand. We've done

1075

00:58:38,730 --> 00:58:42,650

[sloane]: quite well compared to it. Um. you know, in the in the downturn, at various points

1076

00:58:42,730 --> 00:58:46,330

[sloane]: we were, We'd opened up five percentage points of about performance on on the rustle

1077

00:58:46,180 --> 00:58:47,180

[ash_b]: my goodness,

1078

00:58:46,490 --> 00:58:51,210

[sloane]: over the first month of operations. Um, and you know, obviously final numbers will

1079

00:58:51,290 --> 00:58:56,650

[sloane]: come in later. but Um, you know the the big, S. The big takeaway so far has been

1080

00:58:56,890 --> 00:59:01,530

[sloane]: that you know. these things that don't do cruelty on a systematic level seem to have

1081

00:59:01,690 --> 00:59:03,290

[sloane]: more durable businesses, right,

1082

00:59:03,600 --> 00:59:04,640

[ash_b]: Yeah, resilient

1083

00:59:03,770 --> 00:59:07,610

[sloane]: Um, you know resilient. Yeah, it's the whole resilience theme that we keep

1084

00:59:07,380 --> 00:59:08,380

[ash_b]: Mhm,

1085

00:59:07,770 --> 00:59:08,970

[sloane]: talking about. Um,

1086

00:59:08,900 --> 00:59:09,900

[ash_b]: per.

1087

00:59:09,370 --> 00:59:10,730

[sloane]: What's been hard for you lately?

1088

00:59:11,760 --> 00:59:19,600

[ash_b]: Oh, I. I feel like Um, just being uh. I'm building something new, Um in in both at

1089

00:59:19,840 --> 00:59:22,560

[ash_b]: Stamford. I, I'm building like a new research program,

1090

00:59:22,790 --> 00:59:23,790

[sloane]: Hm?

1091

00:59:23,600 --> 00:59:30,400

[ash_b]: Um, and then also doing some in some of the the land of start up, building an a

1092

00:59:30,480 --> 00:59:34,240

[ash_b]: little research function And it's just also for me. It's it's hard, but it's a

1093

00:59:34,320 --> 00:59:39,280

[ash_b]: reminder of how fun it is to like dig in and do the fundamental research. You know.

1094

00:59:38,940 --> 00:59:39,940

[ash_b]: That's

1095

00:59:39,190 --> 00:59:40,190

[sloane]: Yep.

1096

00:59:39,600 --> 00:59:42,880

[ash_b]: what got me here and Um. And so

1097

00:59:43,920 --> 00:59:48,480

[ash_b]: building stuff is hard, but it's kind of worth it. like I, I'm publishing I, I'll

1098

00:59:48,720 --> 00:59:52,720

[ash_b]: maybe I'll use this segment to brag, But like I'm publishing a couple of papers this

1099

00:59:52,880 --> 00:59:57,360

[ash_b]: month that like I'm justper proud of, And it's been it. They've been the private

1100

00:59:54,163 --> 01:01:53,283

[mediaboard_sounds]: Ssssssssssss,

1101

00:59:55,390 --> 00:59:56,390

[sloane]: Oh,

1102

00:59:57,600 --> 00:59:59,440

[ash_b]: equity paper we put out yesterday was

1103

01:00:00,480 --> 01:00:05,600

[ash_b]: coming. The portfolios resilience paper were putting out Um early next month in

1104

01:00:05,680 --> 01:00:07,760

[ash_b]: October, So this month when you listen to it

1105

01:00:09,200 --> 01:00:15,360

[ash_b]: it, it's uh, you know forty plus pages. It took M years to do. I have a paper with

1106

01:00:15,440 --> 01:00:21,040

[ash_b]: Alicster Barker, Um. on how investors deal with technology disruption. We've been

1107

01:00:21,120 --> 01:00:25,280

[ash_b]: working on it for two and a half years. It'll be coming out before, Um. twenty twenty

1108

01:00:25,440 --> 01:00:30,480

[ash_b]: two. So these things are hard and I feel like it takes a long time to do them. But

1109

01:00:30,640 --> 01:00:34,640

[ash_b]: when they come out you know it's like you're kind of giving birth to something so,

1110

01:00:35,200 --> 01:00:39,440

[ash_b]: and then sometimes you put them out, and like nine, nine people see it and then they

1111

01:00:39,600 --> 01:00:44,400

[ash_b]: never hear of it again. Um, but sometimes you know they have an effect, so yeah,

1112

01:00:44,330 --> 01:00:48,090

[sloane]: I mean that's that's really awesome and like it it. and it is like, I, honestly,

1113

01:00:48,250 --> 01:00:52,010

[sloane]: whenever my mood has been kind of unwavery, Like a little ▁jittery. or whatever.

1114

01:00:52,250 --> 01:00:55,370

[sloane]: lately I've been. I've just gone back to my spreadsheet, and that's really brought

1115

01:00:55,610 --> 01:00:57,610

[sloane]: me kind of back up. Uh, it's

1116

01:00:57,220 --> 01:00:58,220

[ash_b]: yeah,

1117

01:00:57,690 --> 01:01:01,690

[sloane]: always the. It's. It's the Adman crap. It's the. You know, it's the back and forth,

1118

01:01:01,850 --> 01:01:05,210

[sloane]: but the the research is really just a joy. Uh, you know

1119

01:01:03,760 --> 01:01:07,920

[ash_b]: it is fun and it's actually that's the link by the way between academia and finance.

1120

01:01:07,860 --> 01:01:08,860

[ash_b]: Like

1121

01:01:08,310 --> 01:01:09,310

[sloane]: so true.

1122

01:01:09,040 --> 01:01:12,720

[ash_b]: people who are are really great investors. They spend their life doing research. It's

1123

01:01:12,800 --> 01:01:16,560

[ash_b]: just they don't publish it. you know they. They make use of it in an investment

1124

01:01:16,660 --> 01:01:17,660

[ash_b]: strategy. So

1125

01:01:17,290 --> 01:01:20,170

[sloane]: Yeah, they just sit in there skyscrapers and cackle about it.

1126

01:01:23,040 --> 01:01:24,640

[ash_b]: Halloween episode coming up.

1127

01:01:25,270 --> 01:01:26,270

[sloane]: Whoop. sorry.

1128

01:01:26,000 --> 01:01:27,760

[ash_b]: Oh no. that's great. it's badd.

1129

01:01:28,410 --> 01:01:33,210

[sloane]: it's time. Um. it's s for dear Ashby. This is the segment where we beg you to review

1130

01:01:33,370 --> 01:01:36,410

[sloane]: our podcast If you've listened this long, you know how good it is. Um,

1131

01:01:37,450 --> 01:01:42,010

[sloane]: you know, But, And and it's also the segment Uh, more importantly, where we answer

1132

01:01:42,330 --> 01:01:46,490

[sloane]: questions from you, and it's very easy to send us questions, Um, free money pot at

1133

01:01:46,570 --> 01:01:51,050

[sloane]: Gil dot Com At Free money for twenty sixty nine on Twitter. All of these things, all

1134

01:01:51,130 --> 01:01:53,130

[sloane]: of these ways you can just I. Also, you

1135

01:01:53,100 --> 01:01:54,100

[ash_b]: There's many ways.

1136

01:01:53,210 --> 01:01:57,530

[sloane]: can connect with us on. Yeah, yeah, I mean, if you want to connect to this Mm.

1137

01:01:54,723 --> 01:03:53,043

[mediaboard_sounds]: Ssssssssssssss.

1138

01:01:55,600 --> 01:02:00,160

[ash_b]: mail us a letter to a appal box, which you can find on the website. Maybe

1139

01:02:01,050 --> 01:02:04,810

[sloane]: I. I, yeah. yeah. I mean if you could find an a, if you could find a mailing Gu

1140

01:02:04,160 --> 01:02:07,360

[ash_b]: if there's a peel box on the W. The website Bail it.

1141

01:02:04,630 --> 01:02:05,630

[sloane]: address up.

1142

01:02:07,690 --> 01:02:11,770

[sloane]: Yeah, yeah, send us some chocolates. Um, you know, and if you're if you happen to be

1143

01:02:11,850 --> 01:02:14,090

[sloane]: hanging out on the astroplane, just connect with us

1144

01:02:13,780 --> 01:02:14,780

[ash_b]: Yeah,

1145

01:02:14,250 --> 01:02:18,650

[sloane]: commune. you know, Um, the first ▁qu. but the me. Oh God, not the matter.

1146

01:02:15,760 --> 01:02:19,920

[ash_b]: Metaverse come say his hard.

1147

01:02:24,170 --> 01:02:27,930

[sloane]: So the first question for this speak is I think this is a really interesting. Uh

1148

01:02:27,990 --> 01:02:28,990

[sloane]: behavioral

1149

01:02:28,740 --> 01:02:29,740

[ash_b]: I do too.

1150

01:02:29,610 --> 01:02:32,010

[sloane]: question, Um, retail investors,

1151

01:02:30,880 --> 01:02:32,720

[ash_b]: I think my answer will surprise you.

1152

01:02:32,910 --> 01:02:33,910

[sloane]: Oh, really,

1153

01:02:33,900 --> 01:02:34,900

[ash_b]: Mm. Ask it.

1154

01:02:34,330 --> 01:02:39,130

[sloane]: Mm, retail investors have readily bought the dip in crypto in a way that they

1155

01:02:39,290 --> 01:02:43,770

[sloane]: struggle to do with stocks. Um, do you have any pet theories as to why this is

1156

01:02:44,640 --> 01:02:49,440

[ash_b]: I actually think buying the dip is super easy. Like if especially

1157

01:02:48,090 --> 01:02:49,930

[sloane]: Hm. That is a surprising answer.

1158

01:02:50,480 --> 01:02:53,680

[ash_b]: Yeah, especially if you do no fundamental analysis.

1159

01:02:54,720 --> 01:03:00,560

[ash_b]: So the world of crypto is like, almost by definition a speculative thing.

1160

01:03:01,210 --> 01:03:03,530

[sloane]: Yeah, you can't do fundamental analysis. Really? Yeah,

1161

01:03:02,400 --> 01:03:05,840

[ash_b]: Yeah, there's no cash flows. Like what? what are you studying you? You know, it's the

1162

01:03:05,920 --> 01:03:08,880

[ash_b]: same thing that people do around currencies. Uh, you know, except at least

1163

01:03:08,590 --> 01:03:09,590

[sloane]: yep.

1164

01:03:09,040 --> 01:03:12,480

[ash_b]: when people are modeling currencies, they're the underlying economies and central

1165

01:03:12,560 --> 01:03:16,400

[ash_b]: bank policies and things like that. here. this is literally like

1166

01:03:17,340 --> 01:03:18,340

[ash_b]: price was high.

1167

01:03:19,420 --> 01:03:20,420

[ash_b]: Now price is low.

1168

01:03:21,840 --> 01:03:23,040

[ash_b]: Let's buy. And

1169

01:03:22,630 --> 01:03:23,630

[sloane]: yup,

1170

01:03:23,280 --> 01:03:28,800

[ash_b]: and so I find like, even in my own life when I've been in a speculative mood, Um,

1171

01:03:29,600 --> 01:03:34,320

[ash_b]: when markets drop, I'll be like O. let's put money in there. you know like, but when

1172

01:03:34,400 --> 01:03:40,080

[ash_b]: it becomes individual stocks, which I think is this, Um. user's question, You get a

1173

01:03:40,080 --> 01:03:43,760

[ash_b]: lot. It gets a lot more complicated. You start to think to yourself. Oh, is there

1174

01:03:43,920 --> 01:03:45,840

[ash_b]: something fundamental about this? You

1175

01:03:45,830 --> 01:03:46,830

[sloane]: M. Mhm.

1176

01:03:45,920 --> 01:03:50,720

[ash_b]: know, Is it did the like? I'm not doing research. It's like you know our guest who is

1177

01:03:50,800 --> 01:03:53,600

[ash_b]: like. I don't do research in stocks. I can't remember her day.

1178

01:03:52,970 --> 01:03:55,370

[sloane]: Oh, yeah, the iconic Liz. Yeah,

1179

01:03:54,723 --> 01:05:53,043

[mediaboard_sounds]: Ssssssssssssss.

1180

01:03:55,280 --> 01:03:57,360

[ash_b]: Liz. Liz was like research.

1181

01:03:57,940 --> 01:03:58,940

[ash_b]: Um.

1182

01:03:58,730 --> 01:04:02,650

[sloane]: Yeah, read the longest one. or, or I find the longest one and then I don't read it

1183

01:04:02,630 --> 01:04:03,630

[sloane]: and I buy the stock.

1184

01:04:03,440 --> 01:04:08,640

[ash_b]: Yeah, exactly. Lizz's proxy was length of research. not actually doing the research.

1185

01:04:08,790 --> 01:04:09,790

[sloane]: Yup,

1186

01:04:09,680 --> 01:04:15,520

[ash_b]: Um, So that's a little bit like this world right. And and so when I'm you know,

1187

01:04:15,680 --> 01:04:19,280

[ash_b]: playing around in the markets and like doing index funds, I see a big drop. I'll put

1188

01:04:19,440 --> 01:04:24,720

[ash_b]: all rebalance. I'll get in there, but if you own, you know, g, e or something in the

1189

01:04:24,800 --> 01:04:29,200

[ash_b]: stock drops, you're definitely wondering. Oh, is there something going on here?

1190

01:04:29,750 --> 01:04:30,750

[sloane]: Yeah, what I miss?

1191

01:04:29,920 --> 01:04:33,840

[ash_b]: Like what did I miss? Because I know I missed everything 'cause I don't actually do

1192

01:04:34,000 --> 01:04:38,400

[ash_b]: any work. you know. Whereas stuff like this, it's like there's nothing to miss, you

1193

01:04:37,940 --> 01:04:38,940

[ash_b]: know,

1194

01:04:38,630 --> 01:04:39,630

[sloane]: Yep,

1195

01:04:39,280 --> 01:04:44,160

[ash_b]: And so I think that's what's going on and why people seem to buy the dip on these um

1196

01:04:44,400 --> 01:04:48,080

[ash_b]: crypto assets Because it's impossible to do fundamentals and it's

1197

01:04:47,910 --> 01:04:48,910

[sloane]: Hm,

1198

01:04:48,240 --> 01:04:52,880

[ash_b]: highly likely that they're not missing anything that they didn't know before because

1199

01:04:52,710 --> 01:04:53,710

[sloane]: Hm.

1200

01:04:53,120 --> 01:04:55,600

[ash_b]: there was nothing there to begin with, But ummp,

1201

01:04:55,530 --> 01:04:56,970

[sloane]: that's a really compelling theory.

1202

01:04:56,860 --> 01:04:57,860

[ash_b]: hm, hm.

1203

01:04:57,290 --> 01:05:01,290

[sloane]: Um, y, you know. I. I. my. I. I guess my. My take on it was that like, you know,

1204

01:05:01,370 --> 01:05:05,370

[sloane]: Because it comes as this, like incredibly speculative asset. you know you.

1205

01:05:04,640 --> 01:05:06,560

[ash_b]: that's very similar thought though that's

1206

01:05:06,570 --> 01:05:07,610

[sloane]: Yeah, it is. that's true.

1207

01:05:06,880 --> 01:05:08,800

[ash_b]: that's kind of where I'm going, you know.

1208

01:05:08,730 --> 01:05:12,970

[sloane]: Yeah. yeah. yeah. I guess it's trick is like, if you, if you have it identified as

1209

01:05:13,690 --> 01:05:15,690

[sloane]: like a speculation at the outset,

1210

01:05:15,860 --> 01:05:16,860

[ash_b]: Yeah,

1211

01:05:16,570 --> 01:05:18,490

[sloane]: Um, you know, Yeah, and then

1212

01:05:18,080 --> 01:05:22,800

[ash_b]: like if you're if fine, If you buying bitcoin Mi, maybe you can start to make the

1213

01:05:22,800 --> 01:05:26,560

[ash_b]: case as a store of value. But if you're like, how many or athorium or whatever,

1214

01:05:26,350 --> 01:05:27,350

[sloane]: Mm.

1215

01:05:27,120 --> 01:05:29,520

[ash_b]: like many of these other coins that are out there,

1216

01:05:30,800 --> 01:05:33,600

[ash_b]: people are still trying to figure out what to do with them. you know like

1217

01:05:33,550 --> 01:05:34,550

[sloane]: yeah,

1218

01:05:34,240 --> 01:05:38,960

[ash_b]: it is by almost definition like, Um, a speculation.

1219

01:05:39,590 --> 01:05:40,590

[sloane]: yup

1220

01:05:40,880 --> 01:05:45,520

[ash_b]: You're I don't know. Yeah, I like I said Y, there is no fundamental analysis that I

1221

01:05:45,600 --> 01:05:51,840

[ash_b]: know of yet. Like, have we seen the fundamental like tool kit? Is there an

1222

01:05:51,920 --> 01:05:56,000

[ash_b]: intelligent crypto investor book coming out with cigar butts?

1223

01:05:54,723 --> 01:07:53,043

[mediaboard_sounds]: Ssssssssssssss.

1224

01:05:55,130 --> 01:05:59,930

[sloane]: you know. F. Funny you should ask, uh you. I. I mean, like there. There are some

1225

01:05:57,300 --> 01:05:58,300

[ash_b]: Yeah,

1226

01:06:00,410 --> 01:06:03,610

[sloane]: like pretty cool ways that you could because you know you can think about, for

1227

01:06:03,690 --> 01:06:07,770

[sloane]: instance, like in def, right, like there are all of these like decentralized finance

1228

01:06:04,980 --> 01:06:05,980

[ash_b]: yeah,

1229

01:06:08,010 --> 01:06:13,290

[sloane]: protocols that purport to be about Uh, facilitating the transformation of one

1230

01:06:13,370 --> 01:06:19,050

[sloane]: cryptoacident to another, Um, You, you usually taking a more mainstream crypto. And

1231

01:06:14,560 --> 01:06:15,680

[ash_b]: Hm. okay,

1232

01:06:19,450 --> 01:06:23,210

[sloane]: uh, transmuting it into something that could be invested aggressively instead of a

1233

01:06:23,290 --> 01:06:27,690

[sloane]: yield pool or something like that. And and in that case, um, a lot of the

1234

01:06:27,690 --> 01:06:31,850

[sloane]: fundamentals are explicitly observable because you can watch how many people use the

1235

01:06:31,930 --> 01:06:36,970

[sloane]: protocol to transmit the, the, The, the vanilla crypto into the the Whatever, And

1236

01:06:37,050 --> 01:06:40,570

[sloane]: then you can see like Okay, Protocol One is being used twenty five times more

1237

01:06:40,650 --> 01:06:47,290

[sloane]: frequently than protocol, too, Um, And is that in line with pricing or not? Um, You

1238

01:06:46,400 --> 01:06:47,520

[ash_b]: yeah, fascinating.

1239

01:06:47,370 --> 01:06:52,090

[sloane]: know, but, but like you know, that's that's pretty. I mean that's like it is. I

1240

01:06:50,080 --> 01:06:51,120

[ash_b]: but at' the beginning

1241

01:06:52,090 --> 01:06:54,810

[sloane]: mean, but basically what you're doing there is you're valuuing the New York Stock

1242

01:06:54,970 --> 01:07:00,250

[sloane]: Exchange based on volume. you know. Like, which is how you would do it. Uh, you

1243

01:06:55,940 --> 01:06:56,940

[ash_b]: H.

1244

01:07:00,330 --> 01:07:05,130

[sloane]: know, but admittedly incomplete. Um, but yeah, it's that

1245

01:07:04,320 --> 01:07:08,080

[ash_b]: yeah, you're not. You're not actually connecting into the underlying economy. you're

1246

01:07:07,860 --> 01:07:08,860

[ash_b]: You're still

1247

01:07:08,430 --> 01:07:09,430

[sloane]: exactly

1248

01:07:08,800 --> 01:07:12,240

[ash_b]: operating at the level of the abstract financial market,

1249

01:07:12,730 --> 01:07:17,290

[sloane]: exactly You're still playing with abstractions, Um li. the next question, um,

1250

01:07:17,180 --> 01:07:18,180

[ash_b]: Hm.

1251

01:07:18,330 --> 01:07:21,210

[sloane]: M macquets, I feel like I need to like. Have a have like a

1252

01:07:20,480 --> 01:07:22,080

[ash_b]: Oh, is our Boston part of the show?

1253

01:07:22,250 --> 01:07:23,770

[sloane]: mackets, Yeah, uh, yeah,

1254

01:07:23,820 --> 01:07:24,820

[ash_b]: No, you know what

1255

01:07:27,210 --> 01:07:31,450

[sloane]: markets have been swornen recently, I can't. I. I, every time I try to do an accent

1256

01:07:31,530 --> 01:07:32,650

[sloane]: on the show I get in trouble.

1257

01:07:31,600 --> 01:07:32,720

[ash_b]: Museum of finance

1258

01:07:35,760 --> 01:07:38,080

[ash_b]: I live. Remember, I lived in Boston for two, uh

1259

01:07:38,400 --> 01:07:42,320

[ash_b]: two years, and these are things I heard on the street which are now part of my

1260

01:07:38,410 --> 01:07:39,450

[sloane]: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

1261

01:07:42,400 --> 01:07:48,560

[ash_b]: repertoire. A mom grabbing Um, her little child and saying No, Y, new lot.

1262

01:07:43,050 --> 01:07:53,290

[sloane]: the Museum of finites, it's the

1263

01:07:49,680 --> 01:07:53,840

[ash_b]: No, you're not. No, you're not in case I need to translate, and obviously Museum of

1264

01:07:53,580 --> 01:07:54,580

[ash_b]: finance.

1265

01:07:54,723 --> 01:09:53,043

[mediaboard_sounds]: Ssssssssssssss.

1266

01:07:55,210 --> 01:07:57,450

[sloane]: best. the Museum of finance, definitely, um,

1267

01:07:59,610 --> 01:08:05,210

[sloane]: um. So the markets have ensuthing because of the wories associated with high debt

1268

01:08:05,450 --> 01:08:09,290

[sloane]: levels in the Chinese property development sector have come home to roose.

1269

01:08:09,020 --> 01:08:10,020

[ash_b]: Mm,

1270

01:08:09,770 --> 01:08:12,250

[sloane]: This year is as old as time. Do

1271

01:08:11,940 --> 01:08:12,940

[ash_b]: Yes,

1272

01:08:12,330 --> 01:08:16,250

[sloane]: you remember the first time that you heard somebody worry about Chinese property

1273

01:08:16,230 --> 01:08:17,230

[sloane]: development? Deb.

1274

01:08:17,920 --> 01:08:21,840

[ash_b]: it is his oldest time. I feel like at my entire professional career Is this question

1275

01:08:22,240 --> 01:08:27,120

[ash_b]: went to the core of my being because when I saw the question I was like, Holy cow.

1276

01:08:27,360 --> 01:08:31,520

[ash_b]: You're right. Everybody has been talking about this for

1277

01:08:32,820 --> 01:08:33,820

[ash_b]: twenty years.

1278

01:08:33,830 --> 01:08:34,830

[sloane]: Yep,

1279

01:08:34,560 --> 01:08:37,360

[ash_b]: Uh, this is going to take down the globallye. This got definitely takeed down the

1280

01:08:37,440 --> 01:08:41,360

[ash_b]: Chinese economy. These, the, especially the state own banks, Um, which are holding

1281

01:08:41,440 --> 01:08:43,920

[ash_b]: the bag here. But then it's going to take on the global economy,

1282

01:08:43,990 --> 01:08:44,990

[sloane]: yep, yep.

1283

01:08:44,320 --> 01:08:46,560

[ash_b]: and uh, what's so funny is Um.

1284

01:08:48,160 --> 01:08:55,120

[ash_b]: I can remember when Central Huujin, which is a a state owned entity, which was, is

1285

01:08:55,280 --> 01:09:00,480

[ash_b]: like largely responsible. the' best I can tell, just to bail out banks in China, Um,

1286

01:09:00,640 --> 01:09:05,760

[ash_b]: In two thousand five, it was in the business of bailing out banks, Um,

1287

01:09:06,660 --> 01:09:07,660

[ash_b]: and

1288

01:09:08,240 --> 01:09:12,000

[ash_b]: then I think it was part of the state administration of foreign exchange. This was

1289

01:09:12,080 --> 01:09:18,400

[ash_b]: even before of the C. i. C came into being when C. I. C took over. They moved Central

1290

01:09:18,480 --> 01:09:23,040

[ash_b]: Hojen under the China Investment Corporation because it owns so much of the state

1291

01:09:23,360 --> 01:09:27,360

[ash_b]: banks. It was like a holding company at that point because it had done so much baling

1292

01:09:27,600 --> 01:09:34,240

[ash_b]: outing. Um. But in case you thought that was over, like in twenty nineteen, Hugh End

1293

01:09:34,480 --> 01:09:41,360

[ash_b]: did a fourteen billion bailo of Heng Feng Bank, and all of these bailouts go back

1294

01:09:41,520 --> 01:09:46,560

[ash_b]: down into the real, the real estate economy, and like the overheating that's going on

1295

01:09:46,260 --> 01:09:47,260

[ash_b]: there,

1296

01:09:47,110 --> 01:09:48,110

[sloane]: yep.

1297

01:09:47,600 --> 01:09:53,120

[ash_b]: Um. And you know the fact that like the way they strilize the currency, I think

1298

01:09:53,200 --> 01:09:59,280

[ash_b]: they're issuing local debt. It's all this stuff right. that like powers forward, the

1299

01:09:54,723 --> 01:11:53,043

[mediaboard_sounds]: Ssssssssssssss.

1300

01:09:59,200 --> 01:10:04,400

[ash_b]: the biggest real state boom in the history of the universe. And I say universe,

1301

01:10:04,480 --> 01:10:06,880

[ash_b]: because we don't know if there's aliens, but on Earth, at least

1302

01:10:07,530 --> 01:10:12,010

[sloane]: I mean if if there are aliens, I doubt that they are engaged in as aggressive the

1303

01:10:12,090 --> 01:10:15,770

[sloane]: scale of property development. Un. unless they'. I mean they, they would literally

1304

01:10:12,640 --> 01:10:14,160

[ash_b]: I think that fast

1305

01:10:15,930 --> 01:10:18,970

[sloane]: have to be a multiplanetary species. Uh,

1306

01:10:18,480 --> 01:10:21,120

[ash_b]: to beat us. Yeah, be cause what the Chinese are number one.

1307

01:10:20,010 --> 01:10:23,610

[sloane]: y. yeah, to Yeah. to beat the Chinese at building property.

1308

01:10:23,760 --> 01:10:30,560

[ash_b]: I agree. I agree. Yeah, I've read the expanse. I know about the uh proto molecule.

1309

01:10:30,720 --> 01:10:33,600

[ash_b]: You got to have the proto molecule to beat the giess.

1310

01:10:34,880 --> 01:10:36,560

[ash_b]: Somebody knows what I' talk about out there.

1311

01:10:36,810 --> 01:10:40,330

[sloane]: Yeah, yeah, it's a great. I mean, Jeff Basis is a favorite T V show. By

1312

01:10:40,180 --> 01:10:41,180

[ash_b]: Oh, is it

1313

01:10:40,330 --> 01:10:44,730

[sloane]: the way. Yeah, he actually saved the expanse from being cancelled. Uh, and brought

1314

01:10:44,890 --> 01:10:46,410

[sloane]: it on to Amazon. Uh,

1315

01:10:45,920 --> 01:10:47,440

[ash_b]: that's so funny? It is

1316

01:10:47,190 --> 01:10:48,190

[sloane]: it's like

1317

01:10:47,520 --> 01:10:48,880

[ash_b]: a great series of books.

1318

01:10:49,370 --> 01:10:51,290

[sloane]: it. Yeah, I, I've only watched the show because

1319

01:10:51,420 --> 01:10:52,420

[ash_b]: Oh, yeah,

1320

01:10:51,450 --> 01:10:54,010

[sloane]: I'm you know, I'm a P. I'm a piece of trash.

1321

01:10:53,600 --> 01:10:55,680

[ash_b]: it's still a pretty good show. I've seen it too. Yeah.

1322

01:10:57,210 --> 01:10:59,850

[sloane]: Um, Okay, so we have a lot of Chinese questions. I

1323

01:10:59,850 --> 01:11:03,370

[sloane]: guess Ch. you know. Yeah, we get Uh, China on the mind,

1324

01:10:59,920 --> 01:11:01,360

[ash_b]: what's up? What's up? Yeah,

1325

01:11:03,260 --> 01:11:04,260

[ash_b]: hm.

1326

01:11:03,930 --> 01:11:07,770

[sloane]: Um, Hong Kong police. hopely, should I have forgot about this question? Hong Kong

1327

01:11:07,930 --> 01:11:13,770

[sloane]: police have arrested activists for trying to incite subversion by distributing

1328

01:11:13,930 --> 01:11:18,330

[sloane]: Eminem chocolates. If you were to use candy to incite subversion, is this the one

1329

01:11:18,330 --> 01:11:21,610

[sloane]: you're choose? and by the way, the person who sent this question included a link to

1330

01:11:21,610 --> 01:11:24,890

[sloane]: the article, which is a a good best practice for these insane questions?

1331

01:11:24,640 --> 01:11:27,280

[ash_b]: yes, please do that going forward, Uh readers.

1332

01:11:28,880 --> 01:11:33,520

[ash_b]: I love this. I have to tell you, I've had a sneaking suspicion for a long time, and

1333

01:11:33,600 --> 01:11:41,680

[ash_b]: this allows me to reveal it. Um, I think the candy bar Mounds was an as asop by the

1334

01:11:41,760 --> 01:11:43,520

[ash_b]: C, I, A. I think

1335

01:11:43,190 --> 01:11:44,190

[sloane]: Hm,

1336

01:11:43,680 --> 01:11:48,160

[ash_b]: the candy bar mounds has created far more pain on the earth than pleasure.

1337

01:11:49,360 --> 01:11:53,440

[ash_b]: How many children have reached into their Halloween candy bag and pulled out of

1338

01:11:53,520 --> 01:11:55,440

[ash_b]: mounds and been horrified.

1339

01:11:54,723 --> 01:13:53,043

[mediaboard_sounds]: Ssssssssssssss.

1340

01:11:57,280 --> 01:11:59,200

[ash_b]: So if I was going to incite

1341

01:12:00,400 --> 01:12:06,000

[ash_b]: subversion, I would replace old kidy bars with mounds candy bars, and you would see

1342

01:12:05,780 --> 01:12:06,780

[ash_b]: people

1343

01:12:06,010 --> 01:12:08,970

[sloane]: hm, mm,

1344

01:12:07,360 --> 01:12:12,880

[ash_b]: so mad when they realize this delicious candy bar you gave them was filled with some

1345

01:12:13,440 --> 01:12:16,320

[ash_b]: random gross Cocan nuut, not even good coconut.

1346

01:12:16,730 --> 01:12:20,970

[sloane]: yup, yup, I. I love this. so this implies heavily that the Chinese Act activists are

1347

01:12:21,050 --> 01:12:22,970

[sloane]: distributing eminems because they're shitty.

1348

01:12:23,920 --> 01:12:28,800

[ash_b]: Oh, oh, I don't know what their logic is. I thought I was in. Try to incite you know,

1349

01:12:28,960 --> 01:12:32,480

[ash_b]: a Yeah, disbelief in the government or something. I don't know what they.

1350

01:12:32,810 --> 01:12:34,650

[sloane]: I, I don't. I mean, I don't know why they're doing it, uh,

1351

01:12:36,510 --> 01:12:37,510

[sloane]: um,

1352

01:12:37,700 --> 01:12:38,700

[ash_b]: Oh, Oh, so you're

1353

01:12:38,270 --> 01:12:39,270

[sloane]: but

1354

01:12:38,640 --> 01:12:42,240

[ash_b]: saying? what is the capitalist thing that I would give people that would prove they

1355

01:12:42,300 --> 01:12:43,300

[ash_b]: love it so much.

1356

01:12:43,550 --> 01:12:44,550

[sloane]: mm,

1357

01:12:44,240 --> 01:12:45,440

[ash_b]: Is that what the question is?

1358

01:12:44,410 --> 01:12:49,210

[sloane]: I mean, I don't know. it's not my question, Um, the. I, I like. I guess you know I,

1359

01:12:49,130 --> 01:12:53,450

[sloane]: I would kind of go like if I was trying to you know, get everybody you know hooked

1360

01:12:53,550 --> 01:12:54,550

[sloane]: on my, my

1361

01:12:54,420 --> 01:12:55,420

[ash_b]: Oh,

1362

01:12:54,810 --> 01:12:57,850

[sloane]: mind, my way of seeing the world. you know, like if we were to have like,

1363

01:12:57,620 --> 01:12:58,620

[ash_b]: yeah,

1364

01:12:58,090 --> 01:13:01,930

[sloane]: I mean, portable Alpa, obviously is not available at sufficient scale to insighter

1365

01:13:02,000 --> 01:13:03,680

[ash_b]: M Hunter Grandbar,

1366

01:13:02,090 --> 01:13:06,170

[sloane]: revolution, because it's you know, Y hundred grand baar, Mm,

1367

01:13:06,240 --> 01:13:07,920

[ash_b]: very delicious and capitalist.

1368

01:13:08,410 --> 01:13:09,770

[sloane]: that's a. I mean, there you go.

1369

01:13:09,540 --> 01:13:10,540

[ash_b]: Yeah,

1370

01:13:09,930 --> 01:13:13,050

[sloane]: Let's yeah, I mean I, I would go with a skiddle too. I mean, like,

1371

01:13:12,820 --> 01:13:13,820

[ash_b]: Mm,

1372

01:13:13,290 --> 01:13:17,690

[sloane]: I think Tasing the rainbow, You know, especially if you haven't partaken before. I

1373

01:13:17,770 --> 01:13:20,970

[sloane]: mean that would be enough to change anybody's mind. Hm.

1374

01:13:19,600 --> 01:13:25,360

[ash_b]: very good. Have you ever had smarties from Canada that are like emine Ms, but they

1375

01:13:25,360 --> 01:13:26,480

[ash_b]: don't selld them in America.

1376

01:13:28,010 --> 01:13:29,210

[sloane]: I don't think I have

1377

01:13:29,040 --> 01:13:32,160

[ash_b]: Ah, for the Canadian listeners out there, Um

1378

01:13:32,870 --> 01:13:33,870

[sloane]: real heads. No,

1379

01:13:33,040 --> 01:13:38,640

[ash_b]: smarties which also exist in the U. K. It's a chocolate candy that looks in fields

1380

01:13:38,720 --> 01:13:43,200

[ash_b]: like Eminem's They never brought to America, but in all the other parts of the

1381

01:13:43,280 --> 01:13:48,320

[ash_b]: English speaking world, they're like as popular as Eminem's They're

1382

01:13:47,910 --> 01:13:48,910

[sloane]: Hm.

1383

01:13:48,480 --> 01:13:53,440

[ash_b]: everywhere. they're called smarties. Look it up. People in America think smarties of

1384

01:13:53,520 --> 01:13:54,720

[ash_b]: these little candy things.

1385

01:13:54,750 --> 01:13:55,750

[sloane]: the chalk things.

1386

01:13:55,760 --> 01:13:59,760

[ash_b]: Yeah, no, no, smarties everywhere else are like better Eminem.

1387

01:13:57,290 --> 01:14:01,450

[sloane]: Yeah, Yeah, like like, Oh, Oh, you like smarty', The the worst candy

1388

01:14:01,600 --> 01:14:05,760

[ash_b]: Yeah, so in America, maybe that's what happened. people are like more smarties. Hell,

1389

01:14:01,610 --> 01:14:08,810

[sloane]: of the entire worldm. Yeah, the brand is poisoned.

1390

01:14:05,920 --> 01:14:07,280

[ash_b]: No, those things are terrible.

1391

01:14:08,720 --> 01:14:12,160

[ash_b]: Yeah, now look it up. These are chocolate covered candies

1392

01:14:12,950 --> 01:14:13,950

[sloane]: Hm

1393

01:14:13,440 --> 01:14:16,880

[ash_b]: and they're better than Eminm's. You heard it here first.

1394

01:14:15,770 --> 01:14:20,330

[sloane]: sounds pretty good. Um, we got. uh, we have one last segment which is, of course,

1395

01:14:20,650 --> 01:14:24,330

[sloane]: whatever ones. everyone's everyone's waiting around for. I mean

1396

01:14:23,580 --> 01:14:24,580

[ash_b]: Yeah, I know that

1397

01:14:25,850 --> 01:14:29,370

[sloane]: it's like I know you hear. I know you feel that applause every time you step out of

1398

01:14:29,440 --> 01:14:33,200

[ash_b]: they're like. What garden tip of the week? It's a big one.

1399

01:14:29,530 --> 01:14:31,210

[sloane]: your garden. What's your garden tip for the week?

1400

01:14:34,480 --> 01:14:35,920

[ash_b]: It's juju B season

1401

01:14:37,360 --> 01:14:43,760

[ash_b]: and I planted the juju be fruit tree in my backyard in the middle of Coved, Because I

1402

01:14:43,840 --> 01:14:48,960

[ash_b]: was like what grows without water. Basically that was the logic. I was like highly

1403

01:14:49,200 --> 01:14:52,640

[ash_b]: drought tolerant trees, please. And

1404

01:14:52,230 --> 01:14:53,230

[sloane]: Hm.

1405

01:14:52,720 --> 01:14:57,920

[ash_b]: it's almost like I organized it because I think the jujubi tree originally cubs from

1406

01:14:58,080 --> 01:15:02,000

[ash_b]: China, So it's almost like this is a segment we planned, but we did not.

1407

01:15:01,450 --> 01:15:04,890

[sloane]: Well what I actually googled it because I was like. Is he making that up?

1408

01:15:06,810 --> 01:15:12,890

[sloane]: Um, The. and I see that it's you, Uh, the Indian and the Chinese juj be, uh,

1409

01:15:12,240 --> 01:15:14,880

[ash_b]: Yes, so I think I have the Chinese juju be, I think

1410

01:15:14,630 --> 01:15:15,630

[sloane]: mm,

1411

01:15:14,940 --> 01:15:15,940

[ash_b]: I seem to recall,

1412

01:15:15,830 --> 01:15:16,830

[sloane]: mm,

1413

01:15:16,480 --> 01:15:20,320

[ash_b]: and they tell you on the internets. this is where we're getting into the tip part of

1414

01:15:20,320 --> 01:15:23,920

[ash_b]: the show That this uh tastes like apples.

1415

01:15:25,600 --> 01:15:30,560

[ash_b]: And so it encourages you when you read that to maybe pick it a little early because

1416

01:15:30,720 --> 01:15:35,440

[ash_b]: you see it Uh, when you get an apple and it searchs to get brown spots on it. You're

1417

01:15:35,520 --> 01:15:36,800

[ash_b]: like Mm. I don't want to eat

1418

01:15:36,670 --> 01:15:37,670

[sloane]: mm, yeah,

1419

01:15:36,880 --> 01:15:43,200

[ash_b]: that apple jujupies. You got to plough through until that entire jujibi is a dark

1420

01:15:43,020 --> 01:15:44,020

[ash_b]: brown

1421

01:15:44,720 --> 01:15:49,520

[ash_b]: and then you eat it and I have to say I've I was eating them way too early

1422

01:15:50,880 --> 01:15:54,960

[ash_b]: and I finally forgot about my tree. For two weeks. I went down there and I was like

1423

01:15:55,040 --> 01:15:56,320

[ash_b]: Damn it, everything's brown

1424

01:15:57,360 --> 01:16:01,200

[ash_b]: because I, apparently I don't pay enough attention to this stuff, but I pulled them

1425

01:16:01,200 --> 01:16:05,040

[ash_b]: off and I was like Wow, It still feels great. It's not squishy or anything. I took a

1426

01:16:05,120 --> 01:16:09,520

[ash_b]: bite. It is like an apple was combined with brown sugar.

1427

01:16:09,910 --> 01:16:10,910

[sloane]: Oh, it rules.

1428

01:16:10,000 --> 01:16:11,840

[ash_b]: It is one of the best

1429

01:16:12,880 --> 01:16:18,880

[ash_b]: fruits I think I have had in a very long time, and my wife informed me not twenty two

1430

01:16:19,040 --> 01:16:23,520

[ash_b]: minutes ago when I was talking about this that if you want to get a bag of jujib' at

1431

01:16:23,520 --> 01:16:24,800

[ash_b]: whole foods is over eight dollars.

1432

01:16:25,350 --> 01:16:26,350

[sloane]: Oh, wow.

1433

01:16:26,320 --> 01:16:27,360

[ash_b]: Yeah, super

1434

01:16:27,150 --> 01:16:28,150

[sloane]: Wow.

1435

01:16:27,500 --> 01:16:28,500

[ash_b]: expensive fruit.

1436

01:16:29,130 --> 01:16:33,530

[sloane]: Also like can I say, has one of the best Latin names of any plant that I've seen

1437

01:16:33,460 --> 01:16:34,460

[ash_b]: Hi me with it.

1438

01:16:33,930 --> 01:16:35,610

[sloane]: ▁zsiphus Motania,

1439

01:16:36,740 --> 01:16:37,740

[ash_b]: Us.

1440

01:16:38,010 --> 01:16:42,170

[sloane]: But I mean like I, it doesn't get much better than that. As far as I'm concerned,

1441

01:16:41,600 --> 01:16:43,520

[ash_b]: hu. I wonder if it's from Mauritious,

1442

01:16:43,950 --> 01:16:44,950

[sloane]: Um,

1443

01:16:44,400 --> 01:16:45,920

[ash_b]: Interesting. interesting,

1444

01:16:45,610 --> 01:16:50,250

[sloane]: we have Mauritus, not just for Asia Pacific dinosaur offshore funds anymore.

1445

01:16:50,320 --> 01:16:51,840

[ash_b]: No, for the ginger bee,

1446

01:16:53,040 --> 01:16:55,040

[ash_b]: All right, That was a log show

1447

01:16:54,330 --> 01:16:59,050

[sloane]: Well with that that's the show. I got nothing. I have nothing left. You took it all

1448

01:16:58,420 --> 01:16:59,420

[ash_b]: un exhausted

1449

01:16:59,343 --> 01:17:00,343

[mediaboard_sounds]: I'm looking

1450

01:17:00,110 --> 01:17:01,110

[sloane]: by.

1451

01:17:02,000 --> 01:17:03,360

[ash_b]: by. We do love you.

1452

01:17:03,383 --> 01:17:04,383

[mediaboard_sounds]: Is

1453

01:17:06,003 --> 01:17:08,243

[mediaboard_sounds]: more than remember, Then I go ra on a

1454

01:17:09,943 --> 01:17:10,943

[mediaboard_sounds]: mo.

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