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[sloane]: Welcome to the Free money podcast. It's where we bring you the Brooklyn Bay Area

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[sloane]: consensus about institutional investing And this is the morning edition. Ask me,

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[sloane]: thank you for being with us at Uh, four thirty in the morning, San Francisco time.

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[ash_b]: It's the drive time. Uh, let's catch to the. let's cut to the chaopper, so we can

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[ash_b]: check in on traffic.

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[sloane]: Yup, yup,

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[ash_b]: What's the traffic slow?

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[sloane]: uh, the traffic is well, I mean currently here at the Uh, or tell us our some

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[sloane]: residents, Um, there are tons of boxes everywhere because we've just rearranged the

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[sloane]: entire house to take care of some best allergies,

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[ash_b]: Oh,

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[sloane]: Um, so

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[ash_b]: my goodness,

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[sloane]: yeah, yp, life is a shambles. Uh,

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[ash_b]: And and if you hear wackys in my house, it's because it is drive time. the kids are

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[ash_b]: getting out the door

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[ash_b]: and it is wild on a Friday, whichlo, I should tell you, happens to be my birthday.

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[sloane]: it's your birthday.

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[ash_b]: Oh, yeah, not only are we

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[sloane]: I think.

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[ash_b]: doing the early drive time free money, but what better way to spend my fricking forty

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[ash_b]: fifth birthday? Then with you

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[ash_b]: recording a podcast for tens of other people?

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[sloane]: I mean I. I think that you know the reaction to the audio issues that we had, Uh,

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[sloane]: you know last year the pitch forks and torches outside of my, my, my house and

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[sloane]: yours. I think. Uh, you know all tens of

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[sloane]: those people, Uh, amass on our doorsteps,

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[ash_b]: Yeah, those people were.

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[ash_b]: It almost got loud. They were yelling together in perfect unison.

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[ash_b]: Yeah, we're sorry about last week's audio issues, but we are going to

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[sloane]: Um,

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[ash_b]: probably put a human back in the loop of this uh,

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[sloane]: yep,

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[ash_b]: technologzed podcast so we'll say

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[sloane]: yeah, e. yeah, exactly, we're going to. We're going to, you know, go a little lower

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[sloane]: tech. Uh, you know, and and, and just like more artisan, I think more artisan.

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[ash_b]: we, or we could go the other way. Let's just fully technologize this crap.

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[sloane]: Oh, shit.

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[ash_b]: You know what I mean like,

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[sloane]: yeah,

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[ash_b]: I don't know what that means. but I do have news. I have news

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[sloane]: you got some news. Get some.

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[ash_b]: cause I want to jump into because there's some wild news items that I think are going

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[ash_b]: to like literally guide others. a guy with a wind, a leaf blower walking behind the

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[ash_b]: edges. So so you get some nice leaf blow noise when you do the drive time podcast.

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[ash_b]: Um, so look, I, Harvard has announced it is goingnna fully divest from fossil fuels,

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[ash_b]: which I think is a big deal. These

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[sloane]: Yeah,

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[ash_b]: guys are not creative. Don't be fooled when you think of.

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[ash_b]: Don't be fulled that you think all of these endowments they invest in venture

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[ash_b]: capital. These guys are creative. Absolutely not. They're all running the exact same

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[ash_b]: investment strategy. They're all begging for access to Soquoya.

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[ash_b]: They are Um,

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[ash_b]: like with high levels of efficiency pursuing an endowment model. And so when you have

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[ash_b]: a big famous endowment that does something like that, it is likely that many will

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[ash_b]: copy them. and the fact that we now have two because let's go back a little bit and

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[ash_b]: recall that it was our good friend, Uh

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[sloane]: y, yp, y.

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[ash_b]: Jagg de Bashir, r I p.

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[sloane]: the,

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[ash_b]: missing episode missing, episode r, I p.

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[sloane]: the, the guest of the This, the Secret hidden Tapes of free money.

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[ash_b]: The secret headted tapes Where we do

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[ash_b]: God, I can believe that happened anyway.

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[ash_b]: We had ▁j Dee on the show and that we lost the tapes. We're professionals. Belt at

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[ash_b]: this,

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[sloane]: Yeah, we're the best at podcasting.

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[ash_b]: we are the best. I f y. uh information for you. We're good at this. Um. But anyway,

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[ash_b]: so University of California announced they were fossil free or almost, and then

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[ash_b]: others were like. Oh, crap. this is possible. And you know who realized it was

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[ash_b]: possible? student groups.

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[sloane]: Yep, Yep,

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[ash_b]: student groups were like. Well, she it. We're getting in there

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[ash_b]: and uh, and they want in the case of Harvard, And so Harvard has to go fossil free.

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[ash_b]: Fantastic, it's going to be great for their net. ▁zero plans. And you know it's just

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[ash_b]: probably good to see somebody take the leap

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[sloane]: Yeah, and and like I mean, for an endowment like Harvards, that's in a whole bunch

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[sloane]: of private investment vehicles. It's not like a chill thing to go. I mean, like you

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[sloane]: know, Invest, Like you know, we just simply don't buy the shit.

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[ash_b]: right

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[sloane]: Um, but like if you're you know, you're again like seventeen k, K, R funds, forty

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[sloane]: five Blackstone funds, and then a whole bunch of other stuff. Um, like how, how

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[ash_b]: pretty hard.

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[sloane]: mechanically like that. Yeah,

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[ash_b]: How are you going to? How are they going to do That is? or is this like when Stanford

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[ash_b]: said they were divesting from coal, And it turned out they were

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[sloane]: yeah,

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[ash_b]: only divesting from their direct holdings of coal, and the the funds they were

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[ash_b]: invested in could still invest, And it's like Well, you don't even do direct

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[ash_b]: investing, so I don't get it anyway.

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[sloane]: yep.

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[ash_b]: Good boylug. you take the wind, the wind out of my sails, the wind beneath my wings.

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[sloane]: that's I think that's my role here.

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[ash_b]: I don't

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[sloane]: I mean, you know you like you. You bring the San Francisco optimism. I bring the New

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[sloane]: York jaundice. uh,

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[ash_b]: so true. we got the like positive optimism, you know, Saving the World vibe over here

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[ash_b]: in California. You guys are transactional mohos.

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[ash_b]: Anyway. Next bit of news comes from. I'm not going to do the accent this time

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[ash_b]: Netherlands,

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[sloane]: m.

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[ash_b]: which is Uh, Yeah, it's always tempting, but I get a lot of feedback on my accents.

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[ash_b]: Ah, a p. G.

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[sloane]: yep, which is not Denmark, different from Denmark.

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[ash_b]: it is.

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[sloane]: The Netherlands of Denmark are different countries.

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[ash_b]: it is a different country. All but it

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[sloane]: Y.

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[ash_b]: is the same thing as Holland. So

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[sloane]: yep. yep. yep.

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[ash_b]: uh, for those of you that are like, Where's Holland? And how is it different from the

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[ash_b]: Netherlands? Boy, do I have a story for you. I f y again, um, a p. G's back in the

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[ash_b]: news, My news. that is because once again this pension fund is leading the world in

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[ash_b]: some pretty interesting data products.

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[ash_b]: They now have

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[ash_b]: a whole of custom in disease that allows investors to track different parts of the

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[ash_b]: Um. Sustainable Development goals. They call s. d.

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[sloane]: hm,

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[ash_b]: I. in Cs. It's coming from their own data and their own platform, which is called the

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[ash_b]: Acid Owner platform, which they've partnered with B C, I, Australian super and P G.

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[ash_b]: G. M.

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[sloane]: Mhm.

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[ash_b]: And they're out there you know, doing really interesting work on Um, sustainable

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[ash_b]: investment, and truly like ground breaking innovations Like, in this case they

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[ash_b]: partnered with Contigo and Black Rock, But it's like a p. G, the pension fund who led

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[ash_b]: the effort

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[sloane]: Yeah,

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[ash_b]: So pretty exciting.

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[sloane]: that's so. that's so much more credible, Uh than like the Black Rock fund tracking

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[sloane]: the S. T. Ds to me, I mean, like the to ha to have, like you know these guys, these

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[sloane]: fiduciary. You know long term investors at the center of it who actually are sitting

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[sloane]: there, owning it. not just like collecting a fee on it. Probably

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[ash_b]: Absolutely. I couldn't agree more. Um, and I meant to. Now that I think about it, I

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[ash_b]: probably should have done that story

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[ash_b]: last before our guest, but I do have more.

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[ash_b]: Hey guys are well oiled the machine.

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[ash_b]: Uh, my next story and then we'll come back to maybe the A P. G briefly before we C.

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[sloane]: H.

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[ash_b]: You know, Kick it to the guest. Um is the State of Wisconsin

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[ash_b]: Investment board,

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[ash_b]: Uh, which arguably is the best American pension plan.

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[sloane]: they're so sharp. I mean like you could. There's all these like cheese headad jokes

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[sloane]: that you can make, But like the I mean, those guy. I. I have had the pleasure of

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[sloane]: interviewing several of them over the years, and like, uh, you know, it's like

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[sloane]: they're coming in from the frozen North. They have, they have the clearest minds,

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[ash_b]: Yeah, they got the clear minds and they, even when they're wearing the cheers, head,

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[sloane]: you know,

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[ash_b]: Uh cheese. it's like with equanimity, you know. they're just like peaceful in

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[ash_b]: just observing.

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[sloane]: I wear my cheese head with equanimity.

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[ash_b]: Oh

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[ash_b]: swib is

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[ash_b]: happy to invest in hotels again and they are launching

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[sloane]: Oh

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[ash_b]: a distressed hotel fund that they are leading with I forget who, cause, I forgot to

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[ash_b]: write it down but a hundred million bucks

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[ash_b]: into distressed hotels and I thought it was fantastic because that their rationale

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[ash_b]: here is that, Um, the pandemic rebound is happening and people will be going to the

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[ash_b]: hotels and so they want to invest in hotels. And so I just like that personally, be

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[ash_b]: cause. I want to go back to hotels

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[ash_b]: and so

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[sloane]: yeah, it's

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[sloane]: no. No. No, No, like thesis. No, no,

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[ash_b]: no, no, no, this one. This, this is like. I read that and I was like cool, cool,

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[ash_b]: cool, cool. If they're investing in hotels, that's a sign. Hotels are coming back.

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[sloane]: hell, yeah,

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[ash_b]: and I like the You know, the mind space of Ashby's had to do a hotel. You know it's

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[ash_b]: goingnna be good. Uh, it turns out most of my hotel experiences are always like, Not

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[ash_b]: that great Like you get to the hotel and they're like Doctor Monk. We've upgraded

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[ash_b]: your room and then you get into the room and you're like How bad was the other room?

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[ash_b]: But this. this is the upgrading Rom.

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[sloane]: it's like. Ah yes. there's only one drippy pipe in this room.

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[ash_b]: Exactly. especially in New York hotels like in New You,

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[sloane]: Well,

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[ash_b]: You of New York, the room is like four feet by three and a half feet, just tall

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[ash_b]: enough.

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[sloane]: I'm pretty excited we're We're heading out my family reunion. I, for you know, long

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[sloane]: time listeners well know, I have a large Mormon family.

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[ash_b]: Yes,

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[sloane]: Um is happening next week. Uh in Salt Lake City, the American Switzerland. Um. And

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[sloane]: and so I am going to get this span a couple of nights in the Salt Lake City,

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[sloane]: Mariott,

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[sloane]: which is like, for. For me, it like brings out my interner, basic white girl in a in

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[sloane]: a way that I just like, Can't explain. It's like the bed sheets are going to be

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[sloane]: clean. It's going to be so good. It's so novel. I mean like, I never thought I would

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[sloane]: be excited to stay. Had a marriet. but here we are. Um,

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[ash_b]: Yeah, well, Cov will do weird things to you. You'll be like Pump to do a lot of

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[ash_b]: things. Um,

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[sloane]: and speaking of, here we

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[ash_b]: Oh,

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[sloane]: are. I see our guest, as in a waiter. Would you like to introduce her?

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[ash_b]: I would, so full disclosure, I absolutely love the company that this woman works for

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[ash_b]: Sam Duncan. She's the C. E.

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[sloane]: You love it so much that you work there?

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[ash_b]: O, of Net Purpose, I might be on the board. Oh, is that the disclosure I was supposed

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[ash_b]: to do? Oh, shit. yeah, so the discla disclosure I thought I was doing was that I love

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[ash_b]: this company and I love this woman and she's a fabulous c. e. O. That's building

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[ash_b]: impact data through a company called Net Purpose, and you know, in light of the A P.

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[ash_b]: G News and the Harvard News and all this stuff, and we've been talking a lot about

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[ash_b]: impact on this show.

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[ash_b]: Um,

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[sloane]: Yep.

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[ash_b]: we thought we'd have her on to help her explain all this stuff to us

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[ash_b]: like we're

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[ash_b]: for

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[sloane]: Yeah, yeah, and you know, and frankly we we are high, Sam.

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[ash_b]: we are. Yeah, Sam.

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[samantha_duncan]: Hey,

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[ash_b]: Hi, good to see you.

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[samantha_duncan]: get to see, too. This is fabulous.

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[ash_b]: Oh, yeah, we're that. we're highly Um. technologized. We got this incredible

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[ash_b]: podcasting system. Um. it worked.

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[sloane]: Yeah, it's totally er. free.

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[ash_b]: Yeah,

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[sloane]: Like we did like two. You know, we did two minutes at the top of this pootcast about

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[sloane]: like audio issues that we've had. And how

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[ash_b]: yep,

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[sloane]: were the worst? So

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[ash_b]: sixty percent of time,

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[samantha_duncan]: I can hear you.

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[ash_b]: sixty percent of the time. It works every time. Okay,

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[samantha_duncan]: I see

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[sloane]: y

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[ash_b]: uh, sam, we were just riffen a little bit about Um, some impact related news. So

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[ash_b]: there's the A. P. G Has all these new indices to track. the S. D. I.

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[ash_b]: You know, it feels like everywhere we turn there's like a big move towards impact. So

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[ash_b]: you're like the c, e o of the one and only, as far as I can figure out Impact data

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[ash_b]: company on the earth,

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[ash_b]: there may be one or two others, but I'm biased. I've already disclosed my biases by

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[ash_b]: the way, said,

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[sloane]: the only company at all on the earth?

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[ash_b]: then if you want to talk to

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[samantha_duncan]: that exists anywhere.

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[ash_b]: if you're interested in impact, close your eyes at dial Sam's phone number anyway.

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[ash_b]: Uh, maybe you could just kick us off with a definition of impact investment, and I

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[ash_b]: know this wasn't part of the plan, but I think sometimes people just need that

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[ash_b]: definition and then the other off the top piece here, which might be a little bit

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[ash_b]: random for you. Is you used to work at Leap Frog in private market stuff? Now you're

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[ash_b]: solving problems in public markets. Maybe as part of your definition of impact

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[ash_b]: investment, you can help us understand how you do impact in public markets?

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[samantha_duncan]: Great questions. Um, fabulous. I can answer them, Mo in like thirty

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[sloane]: Yeah, always asked me like, as always asked the graduates toqui the school question.

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[samantha_duncan]: seconds.

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[sloane]: Where its

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[ash_b]: Sorry,

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[sloane]: so? just La? This paragraph for you.

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[ash_b]: yeah, Subqu, for

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[ash_b]: you don't need to write. write a thesis on this. Thus

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[samantha_duncan]: Vabulous.

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[ash_b]: A you can just give us the quick version.

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[samantha_duncan]: Absolutely absolutely. Why do we start with a definition of impact

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[samantha_duncan]: investing? Very

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[ash_b]: Yes,

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[samantha_duncan]: important question. Um, and

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[samantha_duncan]: I think. Uh, so I'll start with the technical definition and this was

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[samantha_duncan]: actually defined by the Global Impact investing network, which has tried a

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[samantha_duncan]: lot. I think to maintain the integrity of this space as it scales.

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[samantha_duncan]: but they call it impact investments or investments made with the intention

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[samantha_duncan]: to generate positive and measurable social and environmental impact

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[samantha_duncan]: alongside financial return,

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[ash_b]: interesting,

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[samantha_duncan]: So

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[ash_b]: but

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[ash_b]: impact. the word impact seemed like it was in that definition.

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[samantha_duncan]: measurable social and environmental.

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[samantha_duncan]: It was.

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[ash_b]: All right.

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[samantha_duncan]: yep.

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[samantha_duncan]: and

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[sloane]: Are you saying it somewhat of a circular definition? After

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[ash_b]: I' just try to sit here and learnlu right.

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[samantha_duncan]: well it is true. Actually, that's hilarious in itself.

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[ash_b]: But so we're

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[samantha_duncan]: Um.

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[ash_b]: measuring this stuff, I think

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[samantha_duncan]: but

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[ash_b]: is what you're saying?

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[samantha_duncan]: I think the differentor is your measuring it, Um. and also that there's a

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[samantha_duncan]: financial return element. There is a impact investing is intended to

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[samantha_duncan]: combine financial return and measurable social and environmental

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[samantha_duncan]: performance

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[ash_b]: Okay,

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[samantha_duncan]: or return. Um, And I think how you define social and environment

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[samantha_duncan]: performance is the crux of the issue. Like, What does that actually mean

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[samantha_duncan]: Because the word impact, Yes, I think is not fully defined until you define

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[samantha_duncan]: all those

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[ash_b]: Yeah,

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[samantha_duncan]: dimensions.

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[ash_b]: and and part of this is like we're seeing to more regulatory scrutiny here in the Us.

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[ash_b]: I'm sure you've seen it. And and it is probably deserved, because like there is so

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[ash_b]: much capital out there that claims to be sustainable.

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[ash_b]: In your mind, What

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[samantha_duncan]: Y.

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[ash_b]: are some of the key elements of Like an evidenced based reporting framework, Um, that

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[ash_b]: we can kind of take forward that will placate all these regulators.

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[samantha_duncan]: Yeah, well, it is a really interesting space because I think sustainable

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[samantha_duncan]: investing and impact investing and responsible investing and E s, g

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[samantha_duncan]: investing all kind of getting thrown in the mix here. and frankly, I think

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[samantha_duncan]: we're all kind of talking about the same thing that we all have social and

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[samantha_duncan]: environmental goals that we want to incorporate alongside our financial

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[samantha_duncan]: goals, and I think for all of us, as you say, regulation is coming into

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[samantha_duncan]: play across Europe, definitely, and in the U. S. In development and in a

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[samantha_duncan]: number of other markets as well, I think the essence of getting regulation

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[samantha_duncan]: working for us on this topic is to define what the goals are,

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[samantha_duncan]: Um. and the evidence to track performance against those goals should

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[samantha_duncan]: actually be evidence. So big topics like climate change mean we can measure

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[samantha_duncan]: that. Now, in unometric tons of carbon emissions, I mean that metric just

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[samantha_duncan]: needs to be specified and everyone should report it, And then that's

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[samantha_duncan]: comparable as well across the universe, So key elements is to answer.

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[ash_b]: That seems very sensible. Like, why is? I mean? there's lots of questions asking. but

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[ash_b]: I hear you say it like that. Why the hell is not happening already? It just seems so

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[ash_b]: obvious that we would all report on that.

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[samantha_duncan]: Yeah, yeah, well, I think it's so. I think it's an interesting evolution

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[samantha_duncan]: cause if you think back,

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[samantha_duncan]: a financial accounting standards weren't really locked down till the early

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[samantha_duncan]: two thousands. You know when we had a couple of corporate collapses and

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[samantha_duncan]: revenue numbers or whatever were being fudged Until then, Actually it was

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[samantha_duncan]: diff. There were different ways to measure financial performance in every

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[samantha_duncan]: country and then we had the international financial Reporting standards

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[samantha_duncan]: that kind of harmonized a lot of those for a lot of countries. I kind of

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[samantha_duncan]: feel like E, s. G

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[samantha_duncan]: and sustainability is in this similar like disparate phase where there's

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[samantha_duncan]: actually so many elements of social and environmental performance

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[samantha_duncan]: and I like to talk about like five major ones. but like even just water

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[samantha_duncan]: waste,

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[samantha_duncan]: climate

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[samantha_duncan]: jobs, and like people with access to services like those are five things.

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[samantha_duncan]: They're actually quite different

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[samantha_duncan]: and I think because we haven't really deconstructed that well yet, we kind

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[samantha_duncan]: of try and put a wrapper around it in Es G. And then as a result, you've

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[samantha_duncan]: got this rapper term that everyone' using. but it's kind of talking about

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[samantha_duncan]: different things for different people. I feel like we need a deconstruct it

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[samantha_duncan]: again, Kind of like an income statement was with revenue

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[samantha_duncan]: that profit. like put the climate, the waste, the water on the page, and

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[samantha_duncan]: then just get metriics for each of those deconstructed items. We could

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[samantha_duncan]: measure that comparably,

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[sloane]: that would be delightful. I mean as a user of those uh disclosure statements, I, I

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[sloane]: am often in the place where I'm like I am. you know, completely unclear on how to. I

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[sloane]: mean, like you know, you'll get like, really, really good and thoughtful reports

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[sloane]: that are three hundred pages long. Um, you know, or uh, you

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[sloane]: know, and and like I, I think the point about the evolution of counting standards is

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[samantha_duncan]: Yeahtally,

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[sloane]: really well taken. Like you know, every Sass company that's public right now is

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[sloane]: complaining about how revenue recognition standards changed for their kind of Sass

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[sloane]: product, And like all of a sudden, there' p, E ratios or skyrocketing and people are

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[sloane]: grumpy at them. Um, you know, I wonder like I want to go back to Ashbys to part, uh,

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[sloane]: foresee of Ashby's question and ask you about your time at Leaf Frog because you

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[sloane]: know that's a a space that like Uh, you know, Um, kind of a pioneer in impact

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[sloane]: investing. Um, you know and doing private market stuff. Obviously, I wonder if you

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[sloane]: could you could talk about what you found when you got there, Um, and how it

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[sloane]: contrasts to to to kind of what you find. Now.

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[samantha_duncan]: Yeah, absolutely, I will very happily talk about leap frogs. It's a

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[samantha_duncan]: fabulous company and if Anyon's listening here, they still exist. They're

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[samantha_duncan]: still fabulous. You can go find them. The Leaf Frog is basically a one of

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[samantha_duncan]: the first impacts investors in emerging markets. The fund launch. the first

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[samantha_duncan]: fund launched in two thousand and eight actually, with President Bill

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[samantha_duncan]: Clinton, Um. right at the peak of the financial crisis, and the goal of the

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[samantha_duncan]: strategy was really to generate top Corti financial returns

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[samantha_duncan]: with measurable social impact And anything. what Leafrog did really well.

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[samantha_duncan]: Is they defined that very clearly, Like they said, A goal of reaching

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[ash_b]: Mm.

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[samantha_duncan]: twenty five million low income people with access to insurance. Yeah,

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[samantha_duncan]: that's something that you can like. like my grandma could grab on to and be

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[samantha_duncan]: like. Oh, I get that you know, I know what that means. Um, and also it

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[samantha_duncan]: drove the entire investment strate, so every investment vessional in the

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[samantha_duncan]: fund knew that's what they were trying to achieve. Um, So Leapfrog actually

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[samantha_duncan]: went and did that. Um. And I was well, I had the lucky job of measuring our

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[samantha_duncan]: performance against those two goals on a quarterly basis,

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[samantha_duncan]: and the way that we did that Um, was really to back companies that actually

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[samantha_duncan]: provided low income people access to these services and asked them to

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[samantha_duncan]: report to us their performance on that k. p. I. And actually they had that

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[samantha_duncan]: data because that was their company. That was what they were doing. Um, so

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[samantha_duncan]: it actually wasn't that difficult to get

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[samantha_duncan]: the information from companies in terms of this is the metric we're looking

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[samantha_duncan]: for. Oh yeah, that's fine. We have it, but the challenge was just as like

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[samantha_duncan]: data drag of Okay, but can you send that to me an excel for ay, please. And

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[samantha_duncan]: um, then I'm going to combine it with my ten other expeel spadubs and turn

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[samantha_duncan]: that around to my investor and try and generate a report. That whole piece

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[samantha_duncan]: of work which is automated on the financial side is. I think what's like

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[samantha_duncan]: hindering a lot of the impact measurement on the impact side, Not really

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[samantha_duncan]: the fact that the data doesn't exist more that it's like hard to kind of

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[samantha_duncan]: get into a usable format.

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[sloane]: Yeah, it's like it's not that the operator of the company doesn't know that they're

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[sloane]: serving the people that they set out to see tos. It's that you know the the data

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[sloane]: doesn't necessarily exist in a standardized convertible framework. Um, you know, and

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[sloane]: like I, I think that be as we ▁zooe out beyond impact investing right like the? You

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[sloane]: know, If you think about just a standard growth company today,

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[sloane]: Um,

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[samantha_duncan]: Yeah,

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[sloane]: like literally, anything like you know. Think like a ▁zen desk forman sake. Um, you

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[sloane]: know which uh at you know, customer service, C or M. May you know? Maybe it's maybe

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[sloane]: it's the Newtline thing. Maybe not, but that company, you know, the majority of its

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[sloane]: assets are intangible. The majority of its assets are related to Uh, kind of like

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[sloane]: these nonfancial metrics. I I wonder if you could talk about how like people are

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[sloane]: using E d data now to kind of get a better window into that. That sort of stuff.

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[samantha_duncan]: yeah, yeah, I think this is such a good lens on this whole topic, because I

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[samantha_duncan]: think you've got the lens of e, s g and sustainability data. That's like we

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[samantha_duncan]: want to solve the planet's problems and take it it from a social point of

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[samantha_duncan]: view. But then I think if you just take the pure financial ends and

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[samantha_duncan]: intangible value and company value, we're kind of in this world where're

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[samantha_duncan]: just getting more information on the value that companies are driving

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[samantha_duncan]: instead of just a rote set of financial statements. It's all nonfancial

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[samantha_duncan]: data. So, yeah, things like employee retention, Um, I mean, even turno, a

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[samantha_duncan]: kind of gender diversity board diversity, kind of tell you just a little

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[samantha_duncan]: bit more about how a company is made up, and the way they make decisions

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[samantha_duncan]: Who makes those decisions? Uh, all those little bits and pieces that can

407

00:22:44,330 --> 00:22:50,090

[samantha_duncan]: start to, I guess, indicate our drivers of intangible value, Um, today, I

408

00:22:50,090 --> 00:22:53,530

[samantha_duncan]: don't think we're getting to full information on the drivers of intangible

409

00:22:53,770 --> 00:22:56,650

[samantha_duncan]: value, but at least we're like piecing that apart a little bit more than

410

00:22:56,970 --> 00:22:58,570

[samantha_duncan]: just financial statements.

411

00:22:58,900 --> 00:22:59,900

[ash_b]: I love the the

412

00:23:00,880 --> 00:23:05,280

[ash_b]: comment earlier you made about like your your grandma can like wrap your head around

413

00:23:05,520 --> 00:23:09,920

[ash_b]: this. Because when I think of Um, impact and its difference with

414

00:23:10,960 --> 00:23:13,520

[ash_b]: e s g, I think of storytelling.

415

00:23:14,560 --> 00:23:18,720

[ash_b]: And and so I want to ask you a question about. Like the difference between e, s g and

416

00:23:18,640 --> 00:23:23,920

[ash_b]: and outcomes data. Um, and when I think of e s g, data and and I'll let you answer.

417

00:23:24,240 --> 00:23:29,360

[ash_b]: But I, I think of like policies, and it's really hard to tell a freaking story. Like

418

00:23:29,680 --> 00:23:35,600

[ash_b]: this company has a policy around gender diversity. You know that doesn't resonate in

419

00:23:35,680 --> 00:23:39,360

[ash_b]: the same way, and I know, like in talking to you over the years, you're really

420

00:23:39,680 --> 00:23:44,480

[ash_b]: focused on the outcomes and so does the outcome data. then allow you to tell stories.

421

00:23:44,640 --> 00:23:48,960

[ash_b]: and like, give us a little bit of a sense Like what those differences are, and how

422

00:23:49,200 --> 00:23:54,160

[ash_b]: like net purpose avoids. Like that policy stuff, or if you're doing it like how do

423

00:23:54,180 --> 00:23:55,180

[ash_b]: you do it differently?

424

00:23:58,490 --> 00:24:04,490

[samantha_duncan]: Yeah, fabulous, su, um. Yeah, there is this kind of e s g connotation which

425

00:24:04,730 --> 00:24:07,290

[samantha_duncan]: has historically meant and referred to

426

00:24:08,490 --> 00:24:14,010

[samantha_duncan]: policy based. Yes, No answers to questions. Um, and I think what having

427

00:24:14,250 --> 00:24:18,170

[samantha_duncan]: grown up in this industry, What's really tough about that to deal with is

428

00:24:18,650 --> 00:24:22,890

[samantha_duncan]: like classic example. Do you have a gender diversity policy? Yes or no.

429

00:24:23,290 --> 00:24:26,890

[samantha_duncan]: That would have been a question on the Dow Jone Sustainability Index or

430

00:24:27,050 --> 00:24:30,730

[samantha_duncan]: whatever for a company to answer From an e s g perspective.

431

00:24:32,090 --> 00:24:36,810

[samantha_duncan]: It's much simpler to just to know how many women you're actually hiring

432

00:24:38,490 --> 00:24:39,610

[samantha_duncan]: like That's the outcome

433

00:24:38,730 --> 00:24:40,090

[sloane]: Yeah, you can see that from space,

434

00:24:41,860 --> 00:24:42,860

[ash_b]: You mean

435

00:24:42,110 --> 00:24:43,110

[samantha_duncan]: exactly

436

00:24:42,420 --> 00:24:43,420

[ash_b]: you can count,

437

00:24:45,370 --> 00:24:49,930

[sloane]: Simply go out like them and it's like Oh, cool. there are women and there people

438

00:24:50,090 --> 00:24:51,290

[sloane]: with melo in Wow,

439

00:24:51,440 --> 00:24:53,520

[ash_b]: but they have a palicylu.

440

00:24:58,730 --> 00:25:00,330

[samantha_duncan]: exactly. So I kind of feel like

441

00:25:01,610 --> 00:25:06,730

[samantha_duncan]: that's the difference. Outcomes are like quantitative facts that you can

442

00:25:07,290 --> 00:25:10,650

[samantha_duncan]: understand. and I think, By the way at leapfrog, we really thought hard

443

00:25:10,890 --> 00:25:13,770

[samantha_duncan]: about that Like the fact that our goal was a number of people with access

444

00:25:13,850 --> 00:25:17,130

[samantha_duncan]: to insurance. Like everyone knows what that means. I think if we had have

445

00:25:17,210 --> 00:25:18,570

[samantha_duncan]: said a goal that said A,

446

00:25:19,610 --> 00:25:24,730

[samantha_duncan]: on e, s. G. people would like, Okay, Um, I don't really know to do with

447

00:25:24,890 --> 00:25:27,690

[samantha_duncan]: that, but let me try and figure that out for a couple of months before I

448

00:25:27,770 --> 00:25:31,370

[samantha_duncan]: build an investment strategy around it. Um, so yeah, I think the simplicit

449

00:25:31,610 --> 00:25:35,690

[samantha_duncan]: basically outcomes are quantitative facts that measure actual performance

450

00:25:36,250 --> 00:25:41,130

[samantha_duncan]: on a sustainability topic versus a policy which measures really an input

451

00:25:41,450 --> 00:25:46,330

[samantha_duncan]: into achieving the performance. Um and again, just to come back to the

452

00:25:46,570 --> 00:25:50,730

[samantha_duncan]: financial analogy like, I always think It's strange because I would never

453

00:25:50,970 --> 00:25:53,930

[samantha_duncan]: like ask Amazon if they have a policy to generate

454

00:25:54,170 --> 00:25:58,650

[samantha_duncan]: revenue right, like, I kind of want to know what their revenue is.

455

00:25:54,180 --> 00:25:55,180

[ash_b]: totally

456

00:25:59,690 --> 00:26:03,690

[samantha_duncan]: Um, so that's where I feel like this transition is happening and I think

457

00:26:03,850 --> 00:26:07,530

[samantha_duncan]: actually a lot of e, s, g, data you know, just to give full credit to the

458

00:26:07,610 --> 00:26:11,530

[samantha_duncan]: space and the evolution. The reason why it happened that way is because

459

00:26:11,770 --> 00:26:15,290

[samantha_duncan]: there was no quantitative data or they. We didn't have as much contsative

460

00:26:15,450 --> 00:26:20,010

[samantha_duncan]: data as we do today. so we can't to build a way to ask companies what they

461

00:26:20,090 --> 00:26:23,530

[samantha_duncan]: were doing on these topics to assess how they were doing. I just think

462

00:26:23,610 --> 00:26:27,210

[samantha_duncan]: we're in a very different space now where we can actually use the

463

00:26:27,290 --> 00:26:31,930

[samantha_duncan]: quantitative data on performance to assess performance versus intent.

464

00:26:31,440 --> 00:26:37,840

[ash_b]: so real. Quite before you jump your, I'm going to put a a bouny out there, free free

465

00:26:38,080 --> 00:26:43,440

[ash_b]: money mug, free, free money, mugged to the first financial anyistt, That asks a

466

00:26:43,520 --> 00:26:45,440

[ash_b]: corporate Ceo if they have a

467

00:26:45,190 --> 00:26:46,190

[sloane]: Oh god,

468

00:26:45,600 --> 00:26:48,320

[ash_b]: policy Oer revenue. You can.

469

00:26:48,270 --> 00:26:49,270

[sloane]: Oh my god.

470

00:26:48,560 --> 00:26:52,400

[ash_b]: You could lump it in with your question. if they have a policy on gender diversity.

471

00:26:52,890 --> 00:26:58,250

[sloane]: yeah, yeah, yeah, so uh yeah, great quarter, guys, Um, you know, I just wonder. Im

472

00:26:58,330 --> 00:26:59,690

[sloane]: curious like what's your policy?

473

00:26:59,360 --> 00:27:01,440

[ash_b]: What's your policy on revenue? Now

474

00:27:01,530 --> 00:27:06,490

[sloane]: Would you consider do? Are you pro revenue or like? what? Um, Yeah,

475

00:27:05,680 --> 00:27:10,240

[ash_b]: do it, and you get a free mugry, Your next question.

476

00:27:09,790 --> 00:27:10,790

[sloane]: yeah,

477

00:27:11,690 --> 00:27:15,210

[sloane]: I. I mean, actually, I. if if you do it, I'll I'll go even one further than Ashby.

478

00:27:15,290 --> 00:27:19,370

[sloane]: We will like take your photo. and in the way that people treat photos of like Third

479

00:27:19,530 --> 00:27:24,410

[sloane]: World politicians, Uh, will make a page for you like a digital shrine on the free

480

00:27:23,360 --> 00:27:25,600

[ash_b]: You know, what will create an This is.

481

00:27:24,190 --> 00:27:25,190

[sloane]: money.

482

00:27:27,040 --> 00:27:31,200

[ash_b]: that would be artistic Cre, T for you, non token,

483

00:27:31,130 --> 00:27:36,010

[sloane]: Yeah, exactly y, you know I. I. I think like one of the things that comes with a lot

484

00:27:36,090 --> 00:27:39,450

[sloane]: of this. you know. Kind of I. You know, we've basically we're riffing on the

485

00:27:39,450 --> 00:27:43,530

[sloane]: absurdity. Sometimes that people have you. That comes up when people are like asking

486

00:27:43,690 --> 00:27:46,970

[sloane]: me is like. Well, yeah, so you know Like would you consider like? Are you going to

487

00:27:47,050 --> 00:27:51,610

[sloane]: stop destroying the world? Like in three years and five years, or you know? Um, like

488

00:27:51,690 --> 00:27:55,050

[sloane]: I, I, I think that that's relevant to a lot of people you know. And like you know,

489

00:27:55,210 --> 00:27:58,730

[sloane]: our home is at, like the transition Pathway initiative, for instance, ask a question

490

00:27:58,890 --> 00:28:03,370

[sloane]: like Do you guys use an internal pres Carbon? And that that's a group that does you

491

00:28:01,040 --> 00:29:59,360

[ash_b]: ssssssssssssss.

492

00:28:03,450 --> 00:28:06,730

[sloane]: know. They. They basically take the biggest deitters on the public markets and then

493

00:28:06,730 --> 00:28:10,090

[sloane]: they're like. Okay, Well, you know, let's you know. send them all a questionnaire.

494

00:28:10,250 --> 00:28:14,570

[sloane]: Allow people to evaluate them Um, you know and I guess it's helpful for people who

495

00:28:14,570 --> 00:28:19,370

[sloane]: are trying to pick the least bad oil company. Um, you know, but for people like you

496

00:28:16,910 --> 00:28:17,910

[samantha_duncan]: Mhm.

497

00:28:19,370 --> 00:28:23,050

[sloane]: know, do you see a material distinction between that sort of analysis like, let's

498

00:28:23,130 --> 00:28:28,810

[sloane]: pick the least bad oil company? Um, and you know kind of like. I guess what you

499

00:28:28,890 --> 00:28:33,610

[sloane]: could call it a purer or more innocent analysis. Uh, like let's make the most

500

00:28:33,430 --> 00:28:34,430

[sloane]: impact.

501

00:28:37,050 --> 00:28:40,570

[samantha_duncan]: Yeah, yeah, it's an interesting question. Um, and Don me wrong. I think

502

00:28:40,650 --> 00:28:44,650

[samantha_duncan]: there's always. I mean we investors. there's always you. An infinite amount

503

00:28:44,730 --> 00:28:47,770

[samantha_duncan]: of analysis you could do, qualitative and quantitative and consative.

504

00:28:47,930 --> 00:28:50,890

[samantha_duncan]: Definitely isn't the answer to everything, and doesn't capture everything.

505

00:28:51,930 --> 00:28:57,290

[samantha_duncan]: I think. Even in that example, like with an oil company indicators that are

506

00:28:58,490 --> 00:29:02,810

[samantha_duncan]: specified by the sustainable Development goals, like megaad hours of

507

00:29:02,890 --> 00:29:08,890

[samantha_duncan]: renewable energy generated, versus you know, fossil fuel generated energy,

508

00:29:09,130 --> 00:29:13,770

[samantha_duncan]: for example, and looking at how that mix changes over time is probably a

509

00:29:13,850 --> 00:29:18,970

[samantha_duncan]: better way of assessing an oil company's transition to cleaner fuels than

510

00:29:19,690 --> 00:29:21,130

[samantha_duncan]: policies around, like

511

00:29:22,410 --> 00:29:26,010

[samantha_duncan]: gender diversity or their transition or their goals around time now, I

512

00:29:26,010 --> 00:29:28,810

[samantha_duncan]: don't think it's the anything I think like. Actually, the biggest topic at

513

00:29:28,810 --> 00:29:34,330

[samantha_duncan]: the moment is given the net, ▁zero goals and climate emergency. What the

514

00:29:34,410 --> 00:29:38,730

[samantha_duncan]: goals are that a company actually has, so you can nott just look at their

515

00:29:38,970 --> 00:29:42,650

[samantha_duncan]: performance today, but chart their growth or their de growrowth in

516

00:29:42,730 --> 00:29:47,850

[samantha_duncan]: emissions from now out to twenty, thirty, twenty, fifty, twenty, sixty. And

517

00:29:48,010 --> 00:29:51,370

[samantha_duncan]: those are at the moment, Like having questions with the Ceos of these

518

00:29:51,530 --> 00:29:55,610

[samantha_duncan]: companies and saying What is your plan? What is your path? Not just what's

519

00:29:55,690 --> 00:30:00,730

[samantha_duncan]: your performance today. So, yeah, I mean that those type of Um. qualitative

520

00:30:00,890 --> 00:30:03,850

[samantha_duncan]: questions are important, but I would expect those c, e Os to be setting

521

00:30:04,170 --> 00:30:08,250

[samantha_duncan]: quantitative targets, just like they said, quantitative targets on

522

00:30:08,390 --> 00:30:09,390

[samantha_duncan]: financial formats.

523

00:30:08,890 --> 00:30:12,090

[sloane]: Yeah, like the Free Money Board, meaning that we had right before this podcast where

524

00:30:12,090 --> 00:30:15,050

[sloane]: we're like, Oh, we've been having audio issues like vet a

525

00:30:15,100 --> 00:30:16,100

[ash_b]: y, y.

526

00:30:15,130 --> 00:30:18,890

[sloane]: shambles, Like, do we plan to avoid the to get around that over time, or

527

00:30:19,040 --> 00:30:20,560

[ash_b]: We need a policy. Y.

528

00:30:19,050 --> 00:30:22,010

[sloane]: we just sort of, uh, we have a po. We have a policy of working

529

00:30:21,700 --> 00:30:22,700

[ash_b]: Yeah,

530

00:30:22,170 --> 00:30:27,050

[sloane]: on it. Uh, well, let's talk about net purposecause. Uh, you always ▁zoom in on what

531

00:30:27,130 --> 00:30:31,290

[sloane]: you're doing specifically. And and one of the things that jumps out on the site is

532

00:30:31,850 --> 00:30:35,450

[sloane]: you know that you're not making another framework which is quite welcome because

533

00:30:35,690 --> 00:30:40,730

[sloane]: there are many of them. Um, you know, and I, I, I guess you know. You sort of note

534

00:30:40,810 --> 00:30:44,490

[sloane]: that one of the uses of your platform is that standard, a standard setter. You know,

535

00:30:44,490 --> 00:30:49,210

[sloane]: if we were to create the free money, E, s. G, you know. whatever, Um, because

536

00:30:48,910 --> 00:30:49,910

[samantha_duncan]: Mhm.

537

00:30:49,610 --> 00:30:52,330

[sloane]: you know we hate ourselves and whatever, uh,

538

00:30:52,080 --> 00:30:54,960

[ash_b]: trademark. All that that was great. That's great marketing.

539

00:30:56,000 --> 00:30:58,560

[ash_b]: He. s. do whatever because we hate ourselves.

540

00:30:56,000 --> 00:30:58,560

[ash_b]: He. s. do whatever because we hate ourselves.

541

00:30:56,010 --> 00:30:57,210

[sloane]: yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, th. the

542

00:31:01,450 --> 00:31:05,450

[sloane]: yeah. exactly. we were to create the history. whatever framework, Uh, we could log

543

00:31:05,610 --> 00:31:10,490

[sloane]: in that purpose and use your platform To you know, ha, identify opportunities to

544

00:31:10,490 --> 00:31:14,010

[sloane]: converge it with other regulatory frameworks. Can you talk about why that's

545

00:31:14,250 --> 00:31:16,090

[sloane]: important and how that might work on the platform?

546

00:31:18,010 --> 00:31:22,970

[samantha_duncan]: Yes, absolutely thanks, Sloan. Um. So maybe just a word of context as to

547

00:31:23,050 --> 00:31:29,210

[samantha_duncan]: why we're doing that as well. The way we see our role here is we're in this

548

00:31:29,370 --> 00:31:34,650

[samantha_duncan]: moment where we have about a third of all the world's capital committed to

549

00:31:34,810 --> 00:31:40,570

[samantha_duncan]: investing sustainably offer impact or using e, s G, which might be

550

00:31:40,650 --> 00:31:43,770

[samantha_duncan]: confusing. but we take that from an optimistic lens. To say, there's a lot

551

00:31:43,770 --> 00:31:46,490

[samantha_duncan]: of investors that want to do something about this, and there's enough

552

00:31:46,650 --> 00:31:49,050

[samantha_duncan]: emergencies that we need to do something about.

553

00:31:50,490 --> 00:31:53,770

[samantha_duncan]: So, in that moment when you look at getting that done,

554

00:31:54,890 --> 00:31:59,130

[samantha_duncan]: Um, we can't really ask investors to make different decisions until they

555

00:31:59,210 --> 00:32:02,970

[samantha_duncan]: have the data. They need to do that, and getting the data has a couple of

556

00:32:03,050 --> 00:32:06,890

[samantha_duncan]: different elements. One is defining what we should measure, which a lot of

557

00:32:06,970 --> 00:32:11,370

[samantha_duncan]: standard setting bodies have done a lot of work on over a lot of years, and

558

00:32:11,450 --> 00:32:16,570

[samantha_duncan]: we are seeing convergence, which is a really exciting thing, Um. But the

559

00:32:16,650 --> 00:32:21,050

[samantha_duncan]: second is even when we achieve convergence, we have a thirty billion dollar

560

00:32:21,290 --> 00:32:25,050

[samantha_duncan]: financial data industry today that underpins financial investment

561

00:32:25,370 --> 00:32:30,010

[samantha_duncan]: decisions. Um, and that exists because investors don't have the time to

562

00:32:30,090 --> 00:32:33,610

[samantha_duncan]: aggregate their own data and punch numbers from Ped F reports into their

563

00:32:33,690 --> 00:32:38,090

[samantha_duncan]: Excel spreadsheets. You need that technology to underpin the decision

564

00:32:38,110 --> 00:32:39,110

[samantha_duncan]: making process.

565

00:32:39,850 --> 00:32:43,370

[samantha_duncan]: If you look at the shift in capital, then from financial to social and

566

00:32:43,530 --> 00:32:47,610

[samantha_duncan]: environmental performance, we just don't have that infrastructure built yet

567

00:32:48,090 --> 00:32:52,490

[samantha_duncan]: to do that effortlessly, So our mission is literally make impact

568

00:32:52,730 --> 00:32:55,210

[samantha_duncan]: measurement effortless for every investor of the world,

569

00:32:56,570 --> 00:33:00,570

[samantha_duncan]: And when we say, think about standards, Um, we're building the data

570

00:33:00,730 --> 00:33:04,170

[samantha_duncan]: infrastructure, not the standards, So what we would love to see is all

571

00:33:04,330 --> 00:33:09,370

[samantha_duncan]: these standards they converge, And what we do is we kind of map, Um, the

572

00:33:09,450 --> 00:33:12,170

[samantha_duncan]: standards all the standards today, and we put them on one page

573

00:33:13,290 --> 00:33:16,730

[samantha_duncan]: and out of that mapping. Drops a bunch of data points that are actually

574

00:33:16,970 --> 00:33:21,610

[samantha_duncan]: really similar, which is why I think we're so close to convergence and we

575

00:33:21,770 --> 00:33:26,490

[samantha_duncan]: just populate those fields with data. We don't kind of apine on what the

576

00:33:26,570 --> 00:33:30,010

[samantha_duncan]: standards should be. But what's cool out of that is that like a standard,

577

00:33:30,170 --> 00:33:33,450

[samantha_duncan]: seter, could come to the nep of a platform and look at all the data points

578

00:33:33,530 --> 00:33:36,810

[samantha_duncan]: and see how many companies are actually disclosing. What, Like you know,

579

00:33:36,890 --> 00:33:40,490

[samantha_duncan]: you guys are prescribing this disclosed datapo. Only two percent of

580

00:33:40,570 --> 00:33:43,610

[samantha_duncan]: companies in our universe are actually putting any data out on there. Maybe

581

00:33:43,850 --> 00:33:46,730

[samantha_duncan]: you should consider like dropping that from your list, because like eighty

582

00:33:46,890 --> 00:33:51,050

[samantha_duncan]: five percent of companies are disclosing this one. For example. So that's a

583

00:33:51,130 --> 00:33:54,490

[samantha_duncan]: way that we think that we could help the standardzeing process just by

584

00:33:54,570 --> 00:33:58,410

[samantha_duncan]: providing transparency on what data is out there, and as a result, like

585

00:33:58,490 --> 00:34:02,090

[samantha_duncan]: what our company is finding it possible to report on and what they're not.

586

00:34:02,160 --> 00:34:06,560

[ash_b]: It's really interesting. First off to like, remind everybody that a third of the

587

00:34:06,640 --> 00:34:11,280

[ash_b]: capital in the world is like being invested in in this way. and like that. these

588

00:34:12,400 --> 00:34:17,840

[ash_b]: outcomes data don't exist. Like to me, there's like a huge disconnect right, and part

589

00:34:18,000 --> 00:34:19,760

[ash_b]: of me, the the likekeeptic,

590

00:34:19,470 --> 00:34:20,470

[samantha_duncan]: Yeah,

591

00:34:19,920 --> 00:34:24,320

[ash_b]: and me wonders. Did a third of that capital make that commitment Because they knew

592

00:34:24,560 --> 00:34:29,440

[ash_b]: there was no actual measurement. You know, like they could just like. Oh, it's all

593

00:34:29,600 --> 00:34:33,120

[ash_b]: policy based crap anyway, so we'll just keep doing what we're doing and our marketing

594

00:34:33,200 --> 00:34:38,000

[ash_b]: people get to say that we're sustainable because it's all crap. So that's thekeptic,

595

00:34:38,720 --> 00:34:40,480

[ash_b]: Let's put that. let's put that human

596

00:34:40,230 --> 00:34:41,230

[samantha_duncan]: totally

597

00:34:40,560 --> 00:34:44,480

[ash_b]: being to decide. now. The the thing I'm really interested in You're building

598

00:34:44,640 --> 00:34:49,520

[ash_b]: outcomes. Like when you talk to the, I guess your customers like What are they most

599

00:34:49,840 --> 00:34:54,880

[ash_b]: excited about? Is it the climate angle, which feels like it's everywhere. Um, or is

600

00:34:55,040 --> 00:34:58,960

[ash_b]: it like cause? you mentioned. like the five themes that you're really interested in

601

00:34:59,120 --> 00:35:04,160

[ash_b]: access to services? You know all that kind of stuff. So honestly like what is like

602

00:35:04,320 --> 00:35:09,120

[ash_b]: the most interesting thing that they want out of your data. And how are they using

603

00:35:08,820 --> 00:35:09,820

[ash_b]: it?

604

00:35:13,690 --> 00:35:18,650

[samantha_duncan]: yeah. So, I mean, I think they are basically looking. so our clients today

605

00:35:18,890 --> 00:35:23,770

[samantha_duncan]: are fund managers that manage sustainable and impact portfolios and what

606

00:35:23,930 --> 00:35:29,770

[samantha_duncan]: they're looking for is a way to report as rigorously on those outcomes or

607

00:35:29,930 --> 00:35:34,010

[samantha_duncan]: those indicators as they do on their financial performance. And you're

608

00:35:34,090 --> 00:35:38,330

[samantha_duncan]: right, Ashby. I mean, like most of the ninety trillion, or the one third of

609

00:35:38,410 --> 00:35:40,810

[samantha_duncan]: the world's capital that says they're committed to this, is really

610

00:35:40,890 --> 00:35:44,970

[samantha_duncan]: committed to e, s, G, which is largely a lot of policies. Um.

611

00:35:45,710 --> 00:35:46,710

[samantha_duncan]: still,

612

00:35:47,290 --> 00:35:51,610

[samantha_duncan]: but I don't know if you sit read and detail the E U regulation on this

613

00:35:51,690 --> 00:35:53,370

[samantha_duncan]: topic, but it's all quantitative,

614

00:35:53,380 --> 00:35:54,380

[ash_b]: That is fabulous.

615

00:35:53,850 --> 00:35:57,930

[samantha_duncan]: which is fabulous. So they're all going to have to. Yeah, everyone, one's

616

00:35:58,090 --> 00:36:01,930

[samantha_duncan]: going to have to go in that direction. Um, and so I think what our clients

617

00:36:02,010 --> 00:36:07,850

[samantha_duncan]: were looking for is measurable performance, quantitative performance. just

618

00:36:08,090 --> 00:36:11,770

[samantha_duncan]: like they have on financial performance. They are really interested in

619

00:36:11,850 --> 00:36:14,650

[samantha_duncan]: climate, and I think every investor in the world that's doing anything in

620

00:36:14,730 --> 00:36:18,650

[samantha_duncan]: sustainability has to be interested in that right now. Um. and I think

621

00:36:18,810 --> 00:36:24,650

[samantha_duncan]: they've got O K data on some climate metrics like Scope One and Scope, too.

622

00:36:24,810 --> 00:36:29,130

[samantha_duncan]: Although we've found more data just in a more detailed and thorough way

623

00:36:29,770 --> 00:36:34,250

[samantha_duncan]: from the same companies, Um than our peers on even those quite common

624

00:36:34,570 --> 00:36:38,410

[samantha_duncan]: metrics today. But what they' lacking is they're often looking to invest in

625

00:36:38,570 --> 00:36:43,930

[samantha_duncan]: solutions, so products and services that actually are producing things that

626

00:36:44,090 --> 00:36:49,290

[samantha_duncan]: could solve the climate crisis, like renewable energy, but also energy

627

00:36:49,450 --> 00:36:53,770

[samantha_duncan]: efficiency tools, building insulation like, Actually, you know, Um,

628

00:36:54,010 --> 00:36:57,130

[samantha_duncan]: building envelopes, things that are going to solve kind of the energy

629

00:36:57,290 --> 00:37:01,690

[samantha_duncan]: crisis from the demand side as well as supply side, et cetera, And we work

630

00:37:01,930 --> 00:37:04,810

[samantha_duncan]: to identify those solutions and also measure their

631

00:37:06,010 --> 00:37:09,850

[samantha_duncan]: see or two. Avoid it, for example, their impact in a quantitative way, so

632

00:37:09,930 --> 00:37:13,690

[samantha_duncan]: they can not just identify the solution, but measure the impact of

633

00:37:13,770 --> 00:37:17,690

[samantha_duncan]: investing in those solutions, And then I think we have a wider set like we

634

00:37:17,850 --> 00:37:19,130

[samantha_duncan]: actually cover. I kind of

635

00:37:19,100 --> 00:37:20,100

[ash_b]: Hm,

636

00:37:19,290 --> 00:37:20,730

[samantha_duncan]: summarized in five things. we

637

00:37:20,460 --> 00:37:21,460

[ash_b]: Hm,

638

00:37:20,890 --> 00:37:23,450

[samantha_duncan]: cover about ten themes today. But Um,

639

00:37:24,970 --> 00:37:27,690

[samantha_duncan]: Clliim is not the only thing everyone knows that water is going to be

640

00:37:27,850 --> 00:37:30,970

[samantha_duncan]: important next and waste, So don't just anchor on one, but seeal all the

641

00:37:31,050 --> 00:37:33,370

[samantha_duncan]: others as well. we provide that information to them too.

642

00:37:33,610 --> 00:37:36,730

[sloane]: Do you worry all about the way that that information went up, getting used in

643

00:37:36,810 --> 00:37:41,690

[sloane]: marketing? Be cause? The, I mean like the. there's a. um. I mean. I actually had to

644

00:37:41,690 --> 00:37:47,930

[sloane]: hold myself back from writing a big, like, kind of angry blog post about like a a

645

00:37:48,090 --> 00:37:49,370

[sloane]: major asset manager,

646

00:37:51,370 --> 00:37:57,930

[sloane]: Um, put out a uh, you know, like a, basically like a two page infographic about one

647

00:37:58,010 --> 00:38:02,410

[sloane]: of their largest dfunds that heavily implied that there was a direct implicate A

648

00:38:02,490 --> 00:38:08,250

[sloane]: direct result of Uh. making an allocation of this Etf would be the reduction in

649

00:38:08,570 --> 00:38:13,690

[sloane]: carbon. In other words, that by investing in this Ef carbon that would have

650

00:38:13,310 --> 00:38:14,310

[samantha_duncan]: M.

651

00:38:13,770 --> 00:38:18,090

[sloane]: been oitted would not have been omitted. Were A actually the? The? What the data

652

00:38:18,330 --> 00:38:23,770

[sloane]: said is that the carbon footprint of the companies in the portfolio differed from

653

00:38:24,170 --> 00:38:27,130

[sloane]: the carbon footprint in the in the companies of the indices?

654

00:38:28,510 --> 00:38:29,510

[samantha_duncan]: Yeah, yeah,

655

00:38:28,970 --> 00:38:32,970

[sloane]: You know, I. I assume you must run into people crossing that line left and right.

656

00:38:35,130 --> 00:38:38,650

[samantha_duncan]: yes, and this is like, I think a bit of the hardest part about this

657

00:38:38,890 --> 00:38:43,930

[samantha_duncan]: challenge at the moment. that. Um, like the way we work is we just well

658

00:38:44,250 --> 00:38:48,570

[samantha_duncan]: just, but we aggregate data and we provide that to people transparently but

659

00:38:48,650 --> 00:38:52,890

[samantha_duncan]: we don't prescribe how they should use it. We don't dont have visibility or

660

00:38:53,130 --> 00:38:57,050

[samantha_duncan]: any authority over how they publish their reports. I think that's a role

661

00:38:57,210 --> 00:39:01,530

[samantha_duncan]: where regulation can really help and needs to help, because the

662

00:39:01,690 --> 00:39:04,010

[samantha_duncan]: interpretation of this information. Yeah,

663

00:39:05,450 --> 00:39:07,530

[samantha_duncan]: is challenging right now. Um,

664

00:39:08,570 --> 00:39:10,970

[samantha_duncan]: and I think it's kind of like that. How do you

665

00:39:12,010 --> 00:39:16,490

[samantha_duncan]: not let perfect be the enemy of good in taking like micro steps, but also

666

00:39:16,650 --> 00:39:19,050

[samantha_duncan]: like get to perfect as quickly as possible, because

667

00:39:18,860 --> 00:39:19,860

[ash_b]: how do I

668

00:39:19,370 --> 00:39:22,890

[samantha_duncan]: people need to be able to make the decisions. So we do provide some

669

00:39:22,970 --> 00:39:26,330

[samantha_duncan]: guidance around reporting what we consider best practice. But ▁ultimately,

670

00:39:26,490 --> 00:39:28,410

[samantha_duncan]: we don't have your authority.

671

00:39:27,610 --> 00:39:31,770

[sloane]: Yeah, and if you tried to prescribe that you wouldn't have a business, Uh, yeah,

672

00:39:31,630 --> 00:39:32,630

[sloane]: yeah,

673

00:39:32,490 --> 00:39:35,690

[samantha_duncan]: No, and also, I also think it's I mean, so I think it's also.

674

00:39:36,810 --> 00:39:38,170

[samantha_duncan]: It's quite easy to

675

00:39:39,210 --> 00:39:42,650

[samantha_duncan]: ding a lot of these things and let there are a lot of things to do. To be

676

00:39:42,650 --> 00:39:44,810

[samantha_duncan]: honest, because there is a little up, but also

677

00:39:45,850 --> 00:39:51,130

[samantha_duncan]: it's quite hard. like for I don't know someone that's never thought about.

678

00:39:51,450 --> 00:39:55,610

[samantha_duncan]: not like, never learn this in school. never trained on the job to measure

679

00:39:56,010 --> 00:40:00,250

[samantha_duncan]: carbon emissions. Avoided of a portfolio, Kind of may be trying to do their

680

00:40:00,490 --> 00:40:04,010

[samantha_duncan]: best, but like God, it wrong. Who knows. I mean that's the like,

681

00:40:04,170 --> 00:40:07,290

[samantha_duncan]: optimistic, the on it and the pessimistic view, and I just don't think we

682

00:40:07,450 --> 00:40:10,650

[samantha_duncan]: know what is actually happening. I mean, I know for one that like working

683

00:40:10,810 --> 00:40:14,410

[samantha_duncan]: with investors the last ten years, an impact investing, even the most

684

00:40:14,570 --> 00:40:18,170

[samantha_duncan]: sophisticated. Um, it? It's not like effortless

685

00:40:19,290 --> 00:40:22,970

[samantha_duncan]: right, so it's really something that needs to all need to figured out.

686

00:40:22,060 --> 00:40:23,060

[ash_b]: I did want?

687

00:40:22,870 --> 00:40:23,870

[sloane]: that's all way.

688

00:40:23,200 --> 00:40:26,960

[ash_b]: I mean, I know where' we. We've taken you way longer than we promised we would, but

689

00:40:27,120 --> 00:40:31,040

[ash_b]: you're such an interesting topic and it comes up time and time again and and I think

690

00:40:31,120 --> 00:40:35,120

[ash_b]: the the last kind of comment and or question where we want to say is like these

691

00:40:35,360 --> 00:40:40,240

[ash_b]: frameworks. Part of me wonders if like the lack of frameworks is

692

00:40:41,520 --> 00:40:46,160

[ash_b]: useful for some of the more sophisticated investors that are using this data that

693

00:40:46,400 --> 00:40:47,680

[ash_b]: like to feel like they're

694

00:40:47,550 --> 00:40:48,550

[samantha_duncan]: Yeah,

695

00:40:47,760 --> 00:40:53,040

[ash_b]: building their process, and I'm often reminded of like back in the nineteen fifties,

696

00:40:53,360 --> 00:40:57,760

[ash_b]: when one of those big conglomerates started selling cakes in a box,

697

00:40:58,880 --> 00:41:04,560

[ash_b]: Um you? A? like they weren't selling any cakes in a box, because the the chefs at

698

00:41:04,640 --> 00:41:09,200

[ash_b]: home, which back then was usually women were' like this is cheating like I'm I'm just

699

00:41:09,280 --> 00:41:13,920

[ash_b]: putting the cake in in the bowl and mixing it with. Water like that's not cooking,

700

00:41:14,720 --> 00:41:17,920

[ash_b]: you know, And and what they figured out is they had to

701

00:41:17,550 --> 00:41:18,550

[samantha_duncan]: Yeah,

702

00:41:18,000 --> 00:41:21,280

[ash_b]: have the. the. The women put an egg in the box,

703

00:41:22,320 --> 00:41:26,960

[ash_b]: and just the addition of an egg for them made them feel like I'm cooking. There was

704

00:41:27,120 --> 00:41:31,200

[ash_b]: no need to put the egg in, but they added that to the ingredients list. so they

705

00:41:31,360 --> 00:41:35,520

[ash_b]: dumped the box in the bowl. They put an egg and water spun it. They had their cake.

706

00:41:35,680 --> 00:41:41,440

[ash_b]: It's sold like crazy in this case. Where am I going with this great question? Uh, in

707

00:41:41,520 --> 00:41:47,040

[ash_b]: this case like you're providing a really interesting product that like frankly,

708

00:41:47,200 --> 00:41:52,800

[ash_b]: doesn't k, need like it may not need the egg yet. Um, but the these organizs I don't

709

00:41:52,880 --> 00:41:56,400

[ash_b]: know where I'm going, but I think they want the egg right. Like the really

710

00:41:56,880 --> 00:41:59,040

[ash_b]: sophisticated. Like what I think

711

00:41:58,830 --> 00:41:59,830

[samantha_duncan]: absolutely

712

00:41:59,120 --> 00:42:02,400

[ash_b]: we're talking about F name workors is like we don't need an act like we're just

713

00:42:02,480 --> 00:42:06,320

[ash_b]: delivering the impact data analgy, making any sense, Anymo,

714

00:42:06,730 --> 00:42:08,090

[sloane]: Yeah, we will on a plant, bas,

715

00:42:07,950 --> 00:42:08,950

[samantha_duncan]: yes,

716

00:42:08,310 --> 00:42:09,310

[sloane]: substitute for an egg.

717

00:42:09,520 --> 00:42:12,560

[ash_b]: sorry, thisvest be good. Oh shi.

718

00:42:16,350 --> 00:42:17,350

[samantha_duncan]: exactly.

719

00:42:16,640 --> 00:42:19,440

[ash_b]: Anyway, my point is that lack of frameworks may,

720

00:42:19,920 --> 00:42:24,400

[ash_b]: the lack of Framx may actually like help you get early customers from the really

721

00:42:19,920 --> 00:42:24,400

[ash_b]: the lack of Framx may actually like help you get early customers from the really

722

00:42:19,930 --> 00:42:21,130

[samantha_duncan]: I got. I got it.

723

00:42:24,640 --> 00:42:28,720

[ash_b]: sophisticated people that are like. I can really use this data in my process,

724

00:42:24,640 --> 00:42:28,720

[ash_b]: sophisticated people that are like. I can really use this data in my process,

725

00:42:29,920 --> 00:42:33,840

[ash_b]: but the frameworks are then there to take it out to the masses. anyway. that was my

726

00:42:33,540 --> 00:42:34,540

[ash_b]: point.

727

00:42:36,730 --> 00:42:41,050

[samantha_duncan]: No. I totally agree by the way, and I actually think there this like thing

728

00:42:41,370 --> 00:42:42,650

[samantha_duncan]: happening at the moment where

729

00:42:43,850 --> 00:42:48,410

[samantha_duncan]: impacts and sustainable investors do like if they figured out a framework

730

00:42:48,570 --> 00:42:52,170

[samantha_duncan]: ahead of everyone else. They do look like they'. I mean they are they

731

00:42:52,410 --> 00:42:55,210

[samantha_duncan]: actually contributing to figing that at first of all, So that's helpful.

732

00:42:55,690 --> 00:42:59,610

[samantha_duncan]: But Um, people see it as a competitive differentitor, because other people

733

00:42:59,690 --> 00:43:03,290

[samantha_duncan]: haven't yet figured out their frameworks. I think if you fast forward five

734

00:43:03,450 --> 00:43:06,810

[samantha_duncan]: or ten years, though I hope we are in the same situation as we are in

735

00:43:06,970 --> 00:43:11,210

[samantha_duncan]: financial performance where you're an impact investor because you generated

736

00:43:11,610 --> 00:43:14,490

[samantha_duncan]: outsized impact, not because you measured it

737

00:43:14,340 --> 00:43:15,340

[ash_b]: Yeah,

738

00:43:15,130 --> 00:43:19,690

[samantha_duncan]: in a certain way. Um, and that's I think that performance differentiation

739

00:43:20,010 --> 00:43:24,490

[samantha_duncan]: that hasn't yet dropped. Like, Actually, you're an impact investor if

740

00:43:24,570 --> 00:43:28,090

[samantha_duncan]: you're actually outperforming on impact, not if you built a framework to

741

00:43:28,170 --> 00:43:32,570

[samantha_duncan]: measure it. And I think, By the way, people also are spending a lot of

742

00:43:32,810 --> 00:43:36,330

[samantha_duncan]: internal time on figuring this stuff out. and if they're investing actually

743

00:43:36,490 --> 00:43:40,330

[samantha_duncan]: that much human capital in figuring something out, they kind of want to use

744

00:43:40,570 --> 00:43:44,490

[samantha_duncan]: that investment in a way that like is differentiating. so yeah, there is

745

00:43:44,730 --> 00:43:49,130

[samantha_duncan]: that framework versus performance. I think kind of I P type thing happening

746

00:43:49,290 --> 00:43:52,810

[samantha_duncan]: at the moment. I think the long term is standardization hopefully, and you

747

00:43:52,810 --> 00:43:54,410

[samantha_duncan]: know, outperformance on performance.

748

00:43:54,180 --> 00:43:55,180

[ash_b]: agreed.

749

00:43:55,050 --> 00:43:57,770

[sloane]: I think that's a great place to leave it, cause, Yeah, I mean

750

00:43:58,810 --> 00:44:03,210

[sloane]: I. I think you know everyone hopes it bad. We can move past the like bureaucratic uh

751

00:44:03,450 --> 00:44:07,130

[sloane]: form filling out part, and you know, move towards the like, You know, Actually

752

00:44:07,190 --> 00:44:08,190

[sloane]: measuring how

753

00:44:07,630 --> 00:44:08,630

[samantha_duncan]: Yeah,

754

00:44:08,090 --> 00:44:10,010

[sloane]: good people are at doing the thing Part.

755

00:44:10,240 --> 00:44:12,080

[ash_b]: Yeah, are we making the world a better place

756

00:44:11,870 --> 00:44:12,870

[samantha_duncan]: exactly

757

00:44:12,320 --> 00:44:17,120

[ash_b]: and I think you know to close it close down here, I think with if you're successful

758

00:44:17,280 --> 00:44:20,400

[ash_b]: with Net purpose, we're actually going to have an answer for that, you know. Like,

759

00:44:20,560 --> 00:44:25,680

[ash_b]: are these investors actually driving positive impacts in the world, or are they just

760

00:44:25,760 --> 00:44:27,600

[ash_b]: putting you know, marketing

761

00:44:28,640 --> 00:44:30,640

[ash_b]: glosses out, pretending to

762

00:44:31,770 --> 00:44:35,610

[sloane]: Well, Yeah, that's so crucial cause, like I. I, I think a lot of the people that

763

00:44:35,850 --> 00:44:41,050

[sloane]: that we serve intend to S are people who don't trust markets at all, Uh, don't trust

764

00:44:40,910 --> 00:44:41,910

[samantha_duncan]: yeah.

765

00:44:41,210 --> 00:44:43,690

[sloane]: capitalism at all. Uh, you

766

00:44:43,310 --> 00:44:44,310

[samantha_duncan]: yeah,

767

00:44:43,770 --> 00:44:48,890

[sloane]: know, and like to to actually reach those people. Um, you know, you got to have like

768

00:44:48,970 --> 00:44:53,610

[sloane]: a pretty f. firm empirical underpinning, Um, you know, Uh,

769

00:44:53,590 --> 00:44:54,590

[samantha_duncan]: absolutely

770

00:44:53,930 --> 00:44:58,490

[sloane]: and and earn their trust, but thank you so much for taking the time to chat with us.

771

00:44:59,770 --> 00:45:03,370

[samantha_duncan]: all. Thank for having these has been really fun guys. And yes, we hope we

772

00:45:03,450 --> 00:45:07,770

[samantha_duncan]: can earn the trust of those inveestors. Then we can make a little dent in

773

00:45:07,510 --> 00:45:08,510

[samantha_duncan]: this problem

774

00:45:08,400 --> 00:45:09,680

[ash_b]: bigt, All right,

775

00:45:08,730 --> 00:45:10,410

[samantha_duncan]: so we can all have a same in world,

776

00:45:10,090 --> 00:45:12,250

[sloane]: big damn, big den willll. kill this problem

777

00:45:13,190 --> 00:45:14,190

[samantha_duncan]: big dent,

778

00:45:13,870 --> 00:45:14,870

[sloane]: by

779

00:45:14,330 --> 00:45:16,250

[samantha_duncan]: cool guys. What a great way to end

780

00:45:17,710 --> 00:45:18,710

[samantha_duncan]: by.

781

00:45:18,640 --> 00:45:20,080

[ash_b]: fabulous. Yeah,

782

00:45:18,810 --> 00:45:23,530

[sloane]: I. That's so good. that's so good. Uh, I mean we got to call Is like the related

783

00:45:23,690 --> 00:45:25,050

[sloane]: parties broadcast. You know what?

784

00:45:24,580 --> 00:45:25,580

[ash_b]: pretty soon,

785

00:45:26,320 --> 00:45:30,560

[ash_b]: pretty. so. uh, we've got our captain out for whatever our pirate out front. We' just

786

00:45:30,640 --> 00:45:34,400

[ash_b]: going toy be like. You should basically assume we're conflicted on everything we do.

787

00:45:34,590 --> 00:45:35,590

[sloane]: Yeah,

788

00:45:36,330 --> 00:45:37,370

[sloane]: shark, Pa's like, Ah,

789

00:45:38,220 --> 00:45:39,220

[ash_b]: This is

790

00:45:38,590 --> 00:45:39,590

[sloane]: we be.

791

00:45:39,200 --> 00:45:40,640

[ash_b]: radled with codlaxs.

792

00:45:41,610 --> 00:45:44,810

[sloane]: we be represented in a loose network of collaborators.

793

00:45:46,080 --> 00:45:51,200

[ash_b]: But here's the good news. that company is taking off like it is.

794

00:45:51,070 --> 00:45:52,070

[sloane]: Yeah,

795

00:45:51,520 --> 00:45:56,320

[ash_b]: That is real. So it's not just us putting in some random little company Net purposes

796

00:45:56,540 --> 00:45:57,540

[ash_b]: is crushing it. So,

797

00:45:58,010 --> 00:46:03,850

[sloane]: oh yeah, it. well and I, I think that the you know, the the role is so needed like

798

00:46:04,090 --> 00:46:07,690

[sloane]: the Um to have, like you know, Rod. I mean, because like you know, having diligence

799

00:46:07,930 --> 00:46:11,130

[sloane]: a bunch of you know. The I mean, I thought about paying seven thousand bucks for

800

00:46:11,210 --> 00:46:12,650

[sloane]: sustainallitics. Um,

801

00:46:13,850 --> 00:46:17,850

[sloane]: and like you know, I, I decided not to, because I, you know seven thousand dollars

802

00:46:18,010 --> 00:46:21,770

[sloane]: is a lot of money. But but also you know, because like the a lot of the their stuff

803

00:46:21,930 --> 00:46:26,650

[sloane]: kind of does it for you. And just like we were talking about, Um, it's like it's

804

00:46:26,810 --> 00:46:31,130

[sloane]: hard to feel confidence in a portfolio or in a process, a piece of your process that

805

00:46:31,130 --> 00:46:36,010

[sloane]: you essentially import, Um, rather than kind of kind of like, build yourself. And

806

00:46:36,090 --> 00:46:39,530

[sloane]: then you know later on you could think about importing something and go Okay, how

807

00:46:39,610 --> 00:46:44,010

[sloane]: does that map to what we're already doing? Um, but intellectly it's a lot easier to

808

00:46:44,010 --> 00:46:47,290

[sloane]: do it that way than than to go like, Ah, Yes, the nice people at M, s. C. I,

809

00:46:47,840 --> 00:46:52,160

[ash_b]: yeah, yeah, hearing you talk about spending seven thousand dollars on data reminds

810

00:46:51,860 --> 00:46:52,860

[ash_b]: me.

811

00:46:56,000 --> 00:46:57,200

[ash_b]: starting stuff is hard.

812

00:46:58,880 --> 00:47:00,080

[ash_b]: Oh, do we have a ▁jiggle.

813

00:46:59,770 --> 00:47:03,850

[sloane]: oh, oh, it. That's that's the wrong tickle. but yeah, starting stuff is hard. Let's

814

00:47:03,600 --> 00:47:07,760

[ash_b]: starting stuff is hard. This is the part of the show where we talk about how

815

00:47:03,710 --> 00:47:04,710

[sloane]: talk about it.

816

00:47:07,390 --> 00:47:08,390

[sloane]: Oh,

817

00:47:08,160 --> 00:47:10,240

[ash_b]: you start stuff. It's fricking hard.

818

00:47:12,000 --> 00:47:15,280

[ash_b]: And what's new? What's what's been hard this week? In the In the land

819

00:47:15,230 --> 00:47:16,230

[sloane]: oh God,

820

00:47:15,260 --> 00:47:16,260

[ash_b]: of Invest

821

00:47:16,160 --> 00:47:23,280

[ash_b]: Veganing. I experienced it though

822

00:47:17,690 --> 00:47:22,250

[sloane]: so the big thing that I've been dealing with is on boarding. Um, because you know I.

823

00:47:22,110 --> 00:47:23,110

[sloane]: I,

824

00:47:24,250 --> 00:47:27,930

[sloane]: you experience that you experience version One point. Oh, and thank you for going

825

00:47:28,150 --> 00:47:29,150

[sloane]: through that, uh,

826

00:47:29,120 --> 00:47:30,320

[ash_b]: I thought it was' that bad.

827

00:47:30,980 --> 00:47:31,980

[ash_b]: Maybe

828

00:47:31,550 --> 00:47:32,550

[sloane]: really, um,

829

00:47:31,760 --> 00:47:35,200

[ash_b]: on your side, it was hard, but on my side it felt pretty seamless.

830

00:47:36,170 --> 00:47:40,490

[sloane]: Well, it's I mean, I, I think that from a standpoint of Um, like you know, I'm

831

00:47:40,650 --> 00:47:44,250

[sloane]: trying to get out like a do press and do marketing and stuff like that. And and it's

832

00:47:44,330 --> 00:47:48,250

[sloane]: hard to feel confident that that investment of time and effort is worth it. If like,

833

00:47:48,490 --> 00:47:52,090

[sloane]: there's like a pretty solid potential that someone's going to bounce out once they

834

00:47:52,250 --> 00:47:59,370

[sloane]: actually develop the intent to open an account. Um, you know, so, um, I spent a lot

835

00:47:59,450 --> 00:48:04,330

[sloane]: of time over the last couple of s. Building a a Docu sign process that allows people

836

00:48:04,410 --> 00:48:08,810

[sloane]: to kind of you know, with self service forms, go out and complete the questionnaire,

837

00:48:09,530 --> 00:48:14,810

[sloane]: Um, and all of the forums at once in one sitting, Um, you know which which had been

838

00:48:15,130 --> 00:48:20,570

[sloane]: like, Which was a nightmare. Uh, to do. By the way, I, I had not realized how hard

839

00:48:20,810 --> 00:48:26,330

[sloane]: it was to work with Docu signed, or any of these E signed companies, like the Um.

840

00:48:26,650 --> 00:48:31,690

[sloane]: The software is buggy. it, it. it flips out. You know, applying conditional logic is

841

00:48:31,590 --> 00:48:32,590

[sloane]: a mess. sometimes,

842

00:48:33,530 --> 00:48:38,570

[sloane]: um, you know, and like, thank God, I, my partner as a software engineer and is good

843

00:48:38,650 --> 00:48:42,890

[sloane]: at computer because I was like. I literally. At one point, maybe two or three days

844

00:48:42,970 --> 00:48:46,170

[sloane]: ago, I was like so desponded and I was like I'm the worst person ever.

845

00:48:47,290 --> 00:48:52,890

[sloane]: No one will ever open an account here. Uh, and then you know, Clair C got on and and

846

00:48:52,890 --> 00:48:56,410

[sloane]: smooth it out and loan. Behold, while I was doing that, somebody who I have not

847

00:48:56,490 --> 00:48:58,730

[sloane]: spoken to yet opened an account. Um,

848

00:48:58,080 --> 00:49:00,640

[ash_b]: That's nus. That's a sign product market fit.

849

00:49:00,410 --> 00:49:05,290

[sloane]: that's a sign. Yep, Pro Market fit exactly. So what's up? Uh, what's up in your Uh?

850

00:49:05,450 --> 00:49:08,890

[sloane]: many enterprises? Uh, you know, hard hard things wise.

851

00:49:07,280 --> 00:49:14,960

[ash_b]: you know it. It was a hard week. Uh, and the thing about building companies is here's

852

00:49:15,120 --> 00:49:19,840

[ash_b]: the thing that's interesting when it's really hard. like truly hard, a little bit

853

00:49:20,000 --> 00:49:23,120

[ash_b]: like I had this week. You can't talk about it because

854

00:49:24,940 --> 00:49:25,940

[ash_b]: it's too hard.

855

00:49:26,250 --> 00:49:27,690

[sloane]: Yeah, fair fair,

856

00:49:27,600 --> 00:49:31,920

[ash_b]: That's the fascinating figure about this space right, because you know there, there

857

00:49:32,080 --> 00:49:34,480

[ash_b]: is a component of building things where

858

00:49:35,680 --> 00:49:39,200

[ash_b]: you have to continue with the momentum of success

859

00:49:38,950 --> 00:49:39,950

[sloane]: Yup,

860

00:49:39,680 --> 00:49:44,480

[ash_b]: and anything that kind of tarnishes that momentum. you need to. um,

861

00:49:45,920 --> 00:49:50,160

[ash_b]: you know, find a way to position. We've learned a lot yet we failed there, but we

862

00:49:50,240 --> 00:49:54,720

[ash_b]: pivoted and now we understand and like, I'll admit that this week was like a brutal

863

00:49:54,880 --> 00:49:56,000

[ash_b]: week for for some of

864

00:49:55,670 --> 00:49:56,670

[sloane]: Mm,

865

00:49:56,080 --> 00:49:59,040

[ash_b]: the stuff that I I've been working on, I wont tell,

866

00:50:00,240 --> 00:50:02,000

[ash_b]: maintain the mo momentum in that thing,

867

00:50:03,200 --> 00:50:08,720

[ash_b]: but it's the other part of that it. It's very humbling by the way, like as you're

868

00:50:08,420 --> 00:50:09,420

[ash_b]: probably

869

00:50:08,830 --> 00:50:09,830

[sloane]: Mhm,

870

00:50:09,200 --> 00:50:12,720

[ash_b]: experiencing and not humbling. Like the. I just want an award and I don't know what

871

00:50:12,800 --> 00:50:14,800

[ash_b]: to say, so I say I'm humbled. I mean humbled

872

00:50:14,670 --> 00:50:15,670

[sloane]: Y,

873

00:50:15,120 --> 00:50:19,040

[ash_b]: like wow. I don't think I'm as good at this as I thought it'. That kind of humbling

874

00:50:18,810 --> 00:50:19,850

[sloane]: do I even know anything?

875

00:50:20,400 --> 00:50:25,200

[ash_b]: exactly? Does anybody appreciate me? Um, look, I, I, I think

876

00:50:25,290 --> 00:50:26,890

[sloane]: I appreciate you, Ashby,

877

00:50:26,000 --> 00:50:30,080

[ash_b]: thank you and we are trying to build something you know. Um,

878

00:50:31,120 --> 00:50:35,440

[ash_b]: So so I think Like that is hard. And and that's the part of building this stuff where

879

00:50:35,600 --> 00:50:38,720

[ash_b]: you're like, you have to be ready for those negatives and you have to be ready to

880

00:50:38,720 --> 00:50:43,280

[ash_b]: swallow it and go back to people and say yes. We're still. We're still going great,

881

00:50:43,600 --> 00:50:45,040

[ash_b]: you know, even if in the back of

882

00:50:44,630 --> 00:50:45,630

[sloane]: Yup,

883

00:50:45,120 --> 00:50:49,120

[ash_b]: their mou your mind, you, ha, you have a few more doubts than maybe you did. Um, and

884

00:50:49,280 --> 00:50:53,040

[ash_b]: that, I think that's the part that like some people look at and say, is that

885

00:50:53,120 --> 00:50:57,520

[ash_b]: disengenuous. I don't think it is. I've come to terms with the fact that like when

886

00:50:57,600 --> 00:51:01,440

[ash_b]: you're trying to solve a big problem, which I think you and I are generally, you're

887

00:51:01,600 --> 00:51:06,320

[ash_b]: going to come across these moments where like you might not be the perfect person to

888

00:51:06,480 --> 00:51:08,160

[ash_b]: solve every problem. And

889

00:51:07,830 --> 00:51:08,830

[sloane]: Yep,

890

00:51:08,320 --> 00:51:12,880

[ash_b]: so you need help. And so part of getting help is maintaining the momentum so you can

891

00:51:12,960 --> 00:51:15,520

[ash_b]: enlist people. And so you know that

892

00:51:17,440 --> 00:51:21,040

[ash_b]: that's just an interesting thing I think I've come to terms with over the last six

893

00:51:21,200 --> 00:51:24,000

[ash_b]: years. That, like you have these incredible hard things

894

00:51:25,040 --> 00:51:28,720

[ash_b]: and you need to find a way to talk about those hard things in that like keep the

895

00:51:28,800 --> 00:51:30,160

[ash_b]: momentum going. So

896

00:51:30,810 --> 00:51:35,290

[sloane]: yup, Yup, That's so true and so real. I mean like I. I, I think, like you know with

897

00:51:35,610 --> 00:51:39,290

[sloane]: with building like you know a brick in Mo. Like not not brick and Mort, but like a,

898

00:51:39,370 --> 00:51:41,930

[sloane]: you know a business that is not about you know. picking which public companies

899

00:51:42,250 --> 00:51:49,210

[sloane]: didn'tvest Um, you know there is like, uh, I guess you know. Uh, A lot more happens

900

00:51:49,110 --> 00:51:50,110

[sloane]: under the veil

901

00:51:49,940 --> 00:51:50,940

[ash_b]: yeah,

902

00:51:50,270 --> 00:51:51,270

[sloane]: then

903

00:51:51,930 --> 00:51:55,770

[sloane]: you know what I mean. And and like the, If you're legitimately trying, I mean if

904

00:51:55,850 --> 00:51:58,650

[sloane]: you're out, you' trying to like slightly refine ad tech.

905

00:51:58,980 --> 00:51:59,980

[ash_b]: yeah,

906

00:51:59,370 --> 00:52:02,650

[sloane]: Uh, you know or whatever you know, I, the. then

907

00:52:04,020 --> 00:52:05,020

[ash_b]: yeah,

908

00:52:04,670 --> 00:52:05,670

[sloane]: um,

909

00:52:04,940 --> 00:52:05,940

[ash_b]: that that noise

910

00:52:07,120 --> 00:52:08,880

[ash_b]: is perfect for that the attack

911

00:52:08,910 --> 00:52:09,910

[sloane]: yeah, it.

912

00:52:09,120 --> 00:52:10,640

[ash_b]: innovators. Like what

913

00:52:10,730 --> 00:52:13,930

[sloane]: Yeah, it's I mean. it's a colossal waste of time. I mean from a f.

914

00:52:14,170 --> 00:52:19,210

[sloane]: from like a Yeah, for get, but like if you're out you're trying to. Do you know? an

915

00:52:14,220 --> 00:52:15,220

[ash_b]: society perspective?

916

00:52:19,290 --> 00:52:22,650

[sloane]: element of like pure. I, I mean, actually, I, You know a company I'll talk about

917

00:52:22,810 --> 00:52:25,690

[sloane]: that is in the Uh. investing in portfolio went public

918

00:52:25,380 --> 00:52:26,380

[ash_b]: Oh

919

00:52:26,090 --> 00:52:32,410

[sloane]: today, Uh, November seventeenth, Uh, or through Sp, um, Ginko Bioworks, Um, is a the

920

00:52:32,650 --> 00:52:38,010

[sloane]: kind of programmable sales company Um, You know, so they started an M. I, t founded

921

00:52:38,170 --> 00:52:43,210

[sloane]: by this like legendary guy. Um, you know five person founding team. It's great. One

922

00:52:43,210 --> 00:52:46,090

[sloane]: of the reasons that it's in the portfolio and then I really love them is that they

923

00:52:46,090 --> 00:52:50,730

[sloane]: were incredibly candid about how much their shit socked five years ago. Um, you

924

00:52:50,810 --> 00:52:54,730

[sloane]: know, and like the Y, you know, like in a ▁q and a they'. Like what. Let's someone

925

00:52:54,890 --> 00:52:59,050

[sloane]: ask them what's the hardest thing that you've You've dealt with Um. and the c e o

926

00:52:59,210 --> 00:53:01,610

[sloane]: was like. Well, there is that molement where everyone almost ▁quit.

927

00:53:04,980 --> 00:53:05,980

[ash_b]: yeah, yeah,

928

00:53:05,770 --> 00:53:12,170

[sloane]: you know, and like the, and that candor that realism is so appreciated in. you know,

929

00:53:12,490 --> 00:53:17,370

[sloane]: Uh, like assessing. you know management, you know at at this stage, but like at the

930

00:53:17,690 --> 00:53:21,130

[sloane]: you know the stage they were at four years ago, I'm sure it was like a huge problem

931

00:53:21,450 --> 00:53:24,970

[sloane]: because you know they, they could have had. Yeah, I mean, there was sort of a go

932

00:53:25,130 --> 00:53:30,810

[sloane]: nogo decision that investors were making, you know as they went around to to you

933

00:53:30,890 --> 00:53:32,730

[sloane]: know, kind of uh, raise another round.

934

00:53:32,340 --> 00:53:33,340

[ash_b]: yeah.

935

00:53:32,890 --> 00:53:37,850

[sloane]: you know, in another two or three rounds, you know, and um, Yeah, it's like a part

936

00:53:38,010 --> 00:53:40,810

[sloane]: and parcel of the journey. I guess uh,

937

00:53:39,040 --> 00:53:43,440

[ash_b]: it is my last comment before we move to the next segment is is I often hear people

938

00:53:43,600 --> 00:53:47,840

[ash_b]: say. Oh, so long as you know the destination, you know. that doesn't matter the

939

00:53:47,590 --> 00:53:48,590

[sloane]: mm.

940

00:53:47,920 --> 00:53:51,920

[ash_b]: journey. You' going toerate and piv it and fail and you' going to get there and I

941

00:53:52,080 --> 00:53:57,440

[ash_b]: think that's complete bullshit. I think so long as you kind of have a core

942

00:53:57,920 --> 00:54:02,880

[ash_b]: understanding of the problem in the world that you're going after you should be open

943

00:54:03,280 --> 00:54:07,600

[ash_b]: to solving that problem in any number of ways and expressing it across different

944

00:54:07,840 --> 00:54:09,200

[ash_b]: industries, because

945

00:54:08,950 --> 00:54:09,950

[sloane]: Yep,

946

00:54:09,600 --> 00:54:14,000

[ash_b]: building stuff is fricking hard, and so, so

947

00:54:13,830 --> 00:54:14,830

[sloane]: absolutely.

948

00:54:14,160 --> 00:54:18,800

[ash_b]: long as you find the problem you're passionate about working on, continue to iterate

949

00:54:19,040 --> 00:54:23,840

[ash_b]: and pursue it and be open to the fact that the destination may actually be in an

950

00:54:24,160 --> 00:54:29,360

[ash_b]: entirely different lane, then you thought it's not just navigating towards a single

951

00:54:29,520 --> 00:54:34,000

[ash_b]: destination, navigating with an open mind. And a problem statement?

952

00:54:33,630 --> 00:54:34,630

[sloane]: yeah.

953

00:54:35,450 --> 00:54:39,210

[sloane]: really well said Yeah. You're not like Babe Bruth. Like pointing your bat in at left

954

00:54:39,370 --> 00:54:41,930

[sloane]: field and then like you know, churning it out exactly

955

00:54:42,000 --> 00:54:43,840

[ash_b]: Exactly? No idea where you're going?

956

00:54:42,090 --> 00:54:43,930

[sloane]: where it goes. You're you. you're grinding.

957

00:54:45,210 --> 00:54:48,170

[sloane]: Um. Now it's time for some deeper questions.

958

00:54:50,970 --> 00:54:54,570

[sloane]: Uh, it's time for you. Actually, this is when we answer questions from our beloved

959

00:54:52,505 --> 00:56:46,665

[mediaboard_sounds]: Sssssssssss,

960

00:54:54,730 --> 00:55:00,570

[sloane]: audience. Um, the source of wonderful guest recommendations, Um, and great questions

961

00:55:00,650 --> 00:55:05,530

[sloane]: that we take very seriously. So um, if you are one of those people and you have a

962

00:55:05,530 --> 00:55:09,850

[sloane]: burning question, or even I don't know? Maybe that burning. maybe itchy question or

963

00:55:08,980 --> 00:55:09,980

[ash_b]: Yeah,

964

00:55:10,010 --> 00:55:15,370

[sloane]: like, Uh, like a, I don't know. like a. A. A pleasing question. Who knows? Um, but

965

00:55:15,850 --> 00:55:21,130

[sloane]: email it to us. It's uh, free money pod at G, mail dot com, Um, or you know,

966

00:55:21,530 --> 00:55:25,370

[sloane]: Obviously you have our other email addresses. Uh, and stuff, Just reach out to us

967

00:55:25,690 --> 00:55:29,210

[sloane]: that way, Um, and you know I mean like well, I'm doing this kind of uh,

968

00:55:29,770 --> 00:55:33,450

[sloane]: housekeeping, uh, pure segment. I will just say you know there's a. There are these

969

00:55:33,450 --> 00:55:37,530

[sloane]: places where you can rate potcasts and Uh, not not to ten good looking people have

970

00:55:37,610 --> 00:55:42,650

[sloane]: already rated the Pi the Free Money podcast five stars. Um, you know, so that,

971

00:55:39,940 --> 00:55:40,940

[ash_b]: y.

972

00:55:41,520 --> 00:55:44,960

[ash_b]: a lot of people are talking about the itchy questions segment.

973

00:55:47,610 --> 00:55:50,890

[sloane]: yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. I mean. This is actually, I'm sure someone has hichy

974

00:55:51,130 --> 00:55:55,130

[sloane]: about this. Uh. The Chinese government caused the letter, added it by cracking down

975

00:55:55,290 --> 00:55:59,930

[sloane]: on foreign shair listing. Um, And you know this is something that. like all of the

976

00:55:59,950 --> 00:56:00,950

[sloane]: uh, so many

977

00:56:00,460 --> 00:56:01,460

[ash_b]: Mm.

978

00:56:00,810 --> 00:56:03,850

[sloane]: folks you been talking about for years, it finally happened. our pensions selling

979

00:56:03,930 --> 00:56:06,090

[sloane]: their Chinese stocks And should they be?

980

00:56:06,640 --> 00:56:12,800

[ash_b]: I love the word Odjita. It's a word my mom uh, uh uses frequently. I had to like.

981

00:56:12,960 --> 00:56:15,760

[ash_b]: Remind myself with that meant for a second there. Um,

982

00:56:18,160 --> 00:56:21,920

[ash_b]: you know, it's not as much as I thought. I thought we would see a lot of activity

983

00:56:22,160 --> 00:56:27,280

[ash_b]: with respected China. First off, like when Uh. Bengman stepped down from from

984

00:56:27,310 --> 00:56:28,310

[sloane]: Yeah,

985

00:56:27,440 --> 00:56:32,480

[ash_b]: Cowpers. A lot of that was around pressure around China coming from Congress. Um.

986

00:56:32,800 --> 00:56:37,360

[ash_b]: because cowpers is part of the index, like was allocated into some of these companies

987

00:56:37,840 --> 00:56:42,960

[ash_b]: that many people on the kind of right side of Congress were frustrated with, and and

988

00:56:43,280 --> 00:56:49,280

[ash_b]: thought we shouldn't be investing in Um. Then you know, then there was like the whole

989

00:56:48,585 --> 00:58:46,905

[mediaboard_sounds]: Ssssssssssssss,

990

00:56:49,600 --> 00:56:55,280

[ash_b]: anti p o being withdrawn, Um, a An. And for those that don't know is a very big tech

991

00:56:55,440 --> 00:57:00,640

[ash_b]: company had, like, uh, a high flying I P. O promise. like very prominent American

992

00:57:00,800 --> 00:57:05,440

[ash_b]: investors, including Silver Lake, Um, are are in it. which means there's pension

993

00:57:05,600 --> 00:57:09,360

[ash_b]: funds in it. you know. And so you would have thought that like these activities would

994

00:57:06,750 --> 00:57:07,750

[sloane]: y,

995

00:57:09,520 --> 00:57:14,560

[ash_b]: push pension funds to kind of come out publicly and and reconsider their China

996

00:57:14,880 --> 00:57:19,600

[ash_b]: allocation. I haven't seen it. I honestly haven't seen it, because you know all,

997

00:57:16,910 --> 00:57:17,910

[sloane]: h.

998

00:57:20,000 --> 00:57:24,800

[ash_b]: especially in the U. S. many of our public plans are just too desperate for

999

00:57:25,360 --> 00:57:31,360

[ash_b]: performance. They can't look at a market like China, you know, on its path to being

1000

00:57:31,500 --> 00:57:32,500

[ash_b]: the world's biggest economy,

1001

00:57:33,520 --> 00:57:38,080

[ash_b]: Um, and and ignore it you. just it's like. Unfortunately, no matter your views on

1002

00:57:38,160 --> 00:57:42,880

[ash_b]: China and what's going on there, the the economic um, need to generate the

1003

00:57:43,120 --> 00:57:45,520

[ash_b]: performance requires you to have an exposure there.

1004

00:57:46,490 --> 00:57:51,450

[sloane]: Yep. And by the way, it's like forty percent of the index, the Emacyrg market

1005

00:57:51,500 --> 00:57:52,500

[ash_b]: Yeah, exactly,

1006

00:57:51,770 --> 00:57:56,810

[sloane]: index, Um, you know, so like the you know to be to be to sit out on that would be

1007

00:57:57,050 --> 00:57:59,050

[sloane]: quite noticeable to a lot of people. And

1008

00:58:00,020 --> 00:58:01,020

[ash_b]: people don't like to

1009

00:58:00,750 --> 00:58:01,750

[sloane]: exactly

1010

00:58:00,960 --> 00:58:03,200

[ash_b]: deviate from peers Either, that's the way you get

1011

00:58:03,110 --> 00:58:04,110

[sloane]: Yeah, it

1012

00:58:03,520 --> 00:58:05,440

[ash_b]: you get fired in the in the pension industry.

1013

00:58:06,730 --> 00:58:11,290

[sloane]: exactly the kind of career risk that everyone loves. Um, you know, and but like I,

1014

00:58:11,450 --> 00:58:14,410

[sloane]: you know, I guess it's a great segway and this other question, you know we. we

1015

00:58:14,490 --> 00:58:18,010

[sloane]: didn't do it all the way today on the Great Seways by accident, but today,

1016

00:58:19,530 --> 00:58:22,490

[sloane]: Uh, you know, I mean the performance has been good this year. Um,

1017

00:58:21,820 --> 00:58:22,820

[ash_b]: I've heard that.

1018

00:58:23,530 --> 00:58:26,650

[sloane]: you know, a lot of people are up thirty percent When Alicia was was on the On the

1019

00:58:26,650 --> 00:58:30,330

[sloane]: Pocast a couple of episodes ago, she was like, Look, I mean, peing, the big story.

1020

00:58:30,570 --> 00:58:35,370

[sloane]: Is this this performance? What are people going to do about it? Um? And so the

1021

00:58:35,530 --> 00:58:39,290

[sloane]: question, Uh, maybe someone listened to that episode. Um. Lots of pensions are

1022

00:58:38,990 --> 00:58:39,990

[sloane]: suddenly

1023

00:58:39,460 --> 00:58:40,460

[ash_b]: Yeah,

1024

00:58:39,690 --> 00:58:41,610

[sloane]: fully funded. What should they do now?

1025

00:58:41,760 --> 00:58:46,160

[ash_b]: they should immediately lower their expected return target immediately. I'm serious.

1026

00:58:46,700 --> 00:58:47,700

[ash_b]: I'.

1027

00:58:47,290 --> 00:58:48,490

[sloane]: I thought you might say that,

1028

00:58:48,320 --> 00:58:53,840

[ash_b]: It's like the it. It is the equivalent of hiding money from politicians. When

1029

00:58:48,585 --> 01:00:46,905

[mediaboard_sounds]: Ssssssssssssss

1030

00:58:54,080 --> 00:58:58,240

[ash_b]: politicians look at pension plans that are fully funded. they're like Well, let' stop

1031

00:58:54,230 --> 00:58:55,230

[sloane]: Oof,

1032

00:58:58,480 --> 00:59:03,520

[ash_b]: putting money in there. and uh, let's go and invest in schools, which isn't a

1033

00:59:00,550 --> 00:59:01,550

[sloane]: yup, yep,

1034

00:59:03,520 --> 00:59:04,560

[ash_b]: reasonable thing to do.

1035

00:59:05,600 --> 00:59:11,040

[ash_b]: Um, you know, but it just puns down into the future a lot of these. Um. you know,

1036

00:59:11,280 --> 00:59:17,280

[ash_b]: these pension liabilities and so the the mechanism here of funding Um. Not many

1037

00:59:17,440 --> 00:59:21,760

[ash_b]: people realize that there's the asset base, but then we project that asset base into

1038

00:59:21,920 --> 00:59:27,040

[ash_b]: the future right according to expected returns, and we use that expected return to

1039

00:59:27,200 --> 00:59:34,160

[ash_b]: calculate the amount of liability. If the expected return number is high, it makes

1040

00:59:34,320 --> 00:59:39,920

[ash_b]: the liability appear smaller in present dollar terms, Because we are assuming we

1041

00:59:39,910 --> 00:59:40,910

[sloane]: M. mhm,

1042

00:59:40,080 --> 00:59:44,560

[ash_b]: can generate higher performance with that pool of capital we have today. If we lower

1043

00:59:44,340 --> 00:59:45,340

[ash_b]: the

1044

00:59:44,630 --> 00:59:45,630

[sloane]: yup,

1045

00:59:45,040 --> 00:59:50,960

[ash_b]: expected return a little bit, then we, that pool of capital we're sitting on today

1046

00:59:51,120 --> 00:59:55,840

[ash_b]: doesn't quite get as big in the future, which means we can say things like, Oh, we're

1047

00:59:55,920 --> 00:59:57,520

[ash_b]: not fully funded. The

1048

00:59:57,680 --> 01:00:03,120

[ash_b]: Canadians have used this mechanism in credibly well for a long time, they ratch it

1049

00:59:57,750 --> 00:59:58,750

[sloane]: yup,

1050

01:00:03,280 --> 01:00:08,560

[ash_b]: down the expected return target, and by the way as they're doing so, they're de

1051

01:00:08,720 --> 01:00:12,800

[ash_b]: risking the planed liabilities And so you'll see

1052

01:00:12,390 --> 01:00:13,390

[sloane]: Yep.

1053

01:00:12,880 --> 01:00:16,080

[ash_b]: a lot of plans like in real terms getting quite low,

1054

01:00:17,120 --> 01:00:21,760

[ash_b]: Um, you know, four and a half percent, five percent, Um, that might actually be

1055

01:00:21,840 --> 01:00:26,480

[ash_b]: nominal terms. In certain cases, um, where you know, they don't even need to take

1056

01:00:26,560 --> 01:00:30,800

[ash_b]: that much risk anymore in order to have a fully funded pension plan, And that's kind

1057

01:00:30,880 --> 01:00:33,360

[ash_b]: of what we should want. You know.

1058

01:00:33,450 --> 01:00:34,970

[sloane]: that's the dream. Yeah,

1059

01:00:33,840 --> 01:00:38,560

[ash_b]: That's the dream. So, and the interesting thing, Maryland is doing this right now? So

1060

01:00:38,640 --> 01:00:44,800

[ash_b]: Maryland is taking Um, a a page out of the Canadian play book here. And they are you

1061

01:00:45,040 --> 01:00:48,880

[ash_b]: going to lower the dis the discount rate. Weller They expect to return target, which

1062

01:00:48,585 --> 01:02:46,905

[mediaboard_sounds]: Ssssssssssssss

1063

01:00:49,120 --> 01:00:54,880

[ash_b]: will make the plan look like. In less healthy financial shape, Be cause. Now, the

1064

01:00:54,960 --> 01:00:58,560

[ash_b]: politicians won't be able to say we' a hundred and five percent funded. Whatever it

1065

01:00:58,640 --> 01:01:03,520

[ash_b]: is. I don't know. they'll have to say we're ninety seven percent funded. Um. And and

1066

01:01:03,680 --> 01:01:09,200

[ash_b]: so that little trick like allows the pension fund to protect itself from politicians

1067

01:01:09,360 --> 01:01:14,240

[ash_b]: that want to grab either like the contribution money, or um, the money in the plan

1068

01:01:14,560 --> 01:01:16,240

[ash_b]: itself, which is harder

1069

01:01:16,330 --> 01:01:19,610

[sloane]: and like for and like, from a macroprudential standpoint, that's super

1070

01:01:19,710 --> 01:01:20,710

[sloane]: countercyclical,

1071

01:01:22,890 --> 01:01:26,650

[sloane]: which is brilliant, and's exactly what our friends at the Bank of International

1072

01:01:26,810 --> 01:01:28,810

[sloane]: Settlements want investors to be doing.

1073

01:01:28,500 --> 01:01:29,500

[ash_b]: exact.

1074

01:01:30,570 --> 01:01:35,850

[sloane]: You know, Um, like the, rather than just kind of keeping risk in a continuous place,

1075

01:01:36,490 --> 01:01:42,170

[sloane]: regardless of Uh. of broader conditions, Um, this one is like. I think a question

1076

01:01:42,410 --> 01:01:47,450

[sloane]: that everyone, whether or not they vocalized it, Uh, is thinking to some degree, Um,

1077

01:01:48,010 --> 01:01:53,850

[sloane]: I'm preparing for a future as a climate refugee. Um, assuming I can't afford a

1078

01:01:53,930 --> 01:01:57,690

[sloane]: remote ranch in new, ▁zealand, like certain billionaires, What should I do?

1079

01:01:59,520 --> 01:02:04,240

[ash_b]: I think you should just figure out where the climate hazards are going to be the

1080

01:02:04,320 --> 01:02:09,840

[ash_b]: worst in twenty fifty. And and and there are you know? there's a bunch of tools out

1081

01:02:09,920 --> 01:02:12,080

[ash_b]: there now that help individuals. Um,

1082

01:02:13,120 --> 01:02:17,520

[ash_b]: you know, kind of figure that out. It. it's hard. I mean it's a lot of work that I've

1083

01:02:17,600 --> 01:02:21,680

[ash_b]: done myself over the years trying to figure this stuff out, but you know you wa to

1084

01:02:21,760 --> 01:02:24,240

[ash_b]: avoid areas that are goingnna have high, um

1085

01:02:25,440 --> 01:02:31,680

[ash_b]: forest fire risk, Um, high wind from hurricane flooding. Like if you have a basement,

1086

01:02:31,920 --> 01:02:35,360

[ash_b]: you should just you know, make sure you're in a place that isn't go to have high

1087

01:02:35,520 --> 01:02:42,320

[ash_b]: flood risk. So basically I, it. it's not so much in my experience, the like. Oh, I

1088

01:02:37,670 --> 01:02:38,670

[sloane]: Mhm, Yp,

1089

01:02:42,480 --> 01:02:48,400

[ash_b]: got to go to new. ▁zealand, Um. It's a much more local question like actually

1090

01:02:47,950 --> 01:02:48,950

[sloane]: Mhm,

1091

01:02:48,505 --> 01:04:34,025

[mediaboard_sounds]: Ssssssssssssssss.

1092

01:02:49,120 --> 01:02:54,880

[ash_b]: doesn't matter that I, I live in Florida. If M, my first floor is empty

1093

01:02:55,920 --> 01:03:02,640

[ash_b]: and I have the proper materials in my home to protect myself from extreme wind. You

1094

01:03:02,500 --> 01:03:03,500

[ash_b]: know like

1095

01:03:02,990 --> 01:03:03,990

[sloane]: y,

1096

01:03:03,440 --> 01:03:07,440

[ash_b]: obviously, Florida's goingnna have a lot more hurricanes. but there are things you

1097

01:03:07,520 --> 01:03:14,080

[ash_b]: can do to to reduce the projected damages Incredibly, so I don't think you need to

1098

01:03:14,080 --> 01:03:16,560

[ash_b]: like completely, pick up and move to Alaska. Although,

1099

01:03:17,600 --> 01:03:21,440

[ash_b]: um, you know, I'm sure some people are like going to be that extreme about it. I

1100

01:03:21,440 --> 01:03:26,960

[ash_b]: think you need to be very thoughtful in thing about things like floodpains, and you

1101

01:03:26,580 --> 01:03:27,580

[ash_b]: know

1102

01:03:26,830 --> 01:03:27,830

[sloane]: y, y,

1103

01:03:27,360 --> 01:03:29,920

[ash_b]: where you're located. Visa V, the forest,

1104

01:03:31,040 --> 01:03:35,200

[ash_b]: Um, you know that low like everybody always said, Like location, location location,

1105

01:03:35,360 --> 01:03:39,680

[ash_b]: but I don't think people ever thought about that in the context of like, what is the

1106

01:03:39,760 --> 01:03:41,040

[ash_b]: earth? Goingnna throw at me?

1107

01:03:41,830 --> 01:03:42,830

[sloane]: you like preparing for

1108

01:03:42,740 --> 01:03:43,740

[ash_b]: Yeah,

1109

01:03:42,890 --> 01:03:44,170

[sloane]: apocalypse? Yeah, the

1110

01:03:44,880 --> 01:03:48,240

[ash_b]: yeah, but I think you can live. I mean, Obviously, if you're in like the Gulf coast

1111

01:03:48,400 --> 01:03:51,280

[ash_b]: of Louisiana, like you're in trouble, you're in trouble like

1112

01:03:51,290 --> 01:03:54,490

[sloane]: y, yeah, probably probably move. Yes,

1113

01:03:51,440 --> 01:03:56,000

[ash_b]: you know you, you probably need to float. It needs to be a floating home. Um, but

1114

01:03:56,240 --> 01:04:00,560

[ash_b]: other than that I think just really being thoughtful about the location and making

1115

01:04:00,800 --> 01:04:06,320

[ash_b]: sure that you're in a place that doesn't project these hazards out in a terrible way.

1116

01:04:07,450 --> 01:04:11,050

[sloane]: yup. uh. yeah. I think that's a very chill approach to it, cause obviously you can

1117

01:04:11,210 --> 01:04:16,890

[sloane]: go like you said. move up to an extreme place you know. Um. but yeah, simply being

1118

01:04:17,050 --> 01:04:20,890

[sloane]: fifteen feet above you know sea level in a place where everyone else is

1119

01:04:20,580 --> 01:04:21,580

[ash_b]: Yeah,

1120

01:04:20,970 --> 01:04:25,530

[sloane]: below sea level. Um, I, you know, I think it's a pretty good way to start planning.

1121

01:04:25,770 --> 01:04:30,650

[sloane]: Um. That takes us to our concluding segment, which is what everyone really listens

1122

01:04:30,810 --> 01:04:31,850

[sloane]: to this podcast for

1123

01:04:31,120 --> 01:04:32,560

[ash_b]: they hit fast forward for this

1124

01:04:33,690 --> 01:04:36,570

[sloane]: they, No, what we talking about? What? What's your garden tip this week?

1125

01:04:35,760 --> 01:04:39,840

[ash_b]: sor. Oh, sorry, they listen all the way and then they're excited about. but they

1126

01:04:39,850 --> 01:04:41,050

[sloane]: Uh, oh, yeah. Right,

1127

01:04:40,000 --> 01:04:43,680

[ash_b]: stick around. Oh, they stick around for the garden tip. I should say it's not fast

1128

01:04:43,420 --> 01:04:44,420

[ash_b]: forward

1129

01:04:43,610 --> 01:04:47,770

[sloane]: yeah, oh, I. yeah, they fast for Through all the bullshit we just threw it though,

1130

01:04:48,080 --> 01:04:50,720

[ash_b]: exactly to get our garden tip. do, je,

1131

01:04:48,585 --> 01:06:46,905

[mediaboard_sounds]: Ssssssssssssss.

1132

01:04:51,710 --> 01:04:52,710

[sloane]: M.

1133

01:04:52,960 --> 01:04:58,480

[ash_b]: uh, what is your garden tip? Do, your, um. That's the garden tip of the day. Okay,

1134

01:04:58,420 --> 01:04:59,420

[ash_b]: I'll have that.

1135

01:05:01,120 --> 01:05:05,280

[ash_b]: sorry. That's why. doub. a double joke. Uh, great. so I think my garden

1136

01:05:05,030 --> 01:05:06,030

[sloane]: great movie.

1137

01:05:05,440 --> 01:05:07,680

[ash_b]: tip do you is related to my fig tree,

1138

01:05:08,430 --> 01:05:09,430

[sloane]: M,

1139

01:05:08,800 --> 01:05:13,200

[ash_b]: because I keep going down there to figure out when my figs are ready to be eaten.

1140

01:05:08,800 --> 01:05:13,200

[ash_b]: because I keep going down there to figure out when my figs are ready to be eaten.

1141

01:05:14,640 --> 01:05:19,360

[ash_b]: And the fascinating thing is you can. I now know, because I picked one this week.

1142

01:05:19,680 --> 01:05:24,720

[ash_b]: It's just like when they look gross and they're drooping down and you're like Oh, Now

1143

01:05:25,040 --> 01:05:30,560

[ash_b]: like it's It's like they're these little green. You know tout figs that if you

1144

01:05:30,720 --> 01:05:34,960

[ash_b]: actually eat tastes horrific. I made the mistake trying that out.

1145

01:05:35,270 --> 01:05:36,270

[sloane]: mm, mm,

1146

01:05:35,600 --> 01:05:37,600

[ash_b]: Um. but the minute they go droopy,

1147

01:05:38,720 --> 01:05:44,240

[ash_b]: Um, and they, you know answer starting to like. Try to get excited about them. It.

1148

01:05:44,160 --> 01:05:51,120

[ash_b]: It's like the most amazing fruit. and uh, and so that's like it reminds me in the

1149

01:05:51,120 --> 01:05:55,440

[ash_b]: terms of gardening tips. like, Really, as you plant things, spending some time to

1150

01:05:55,920 --> 01:06:00,320

[ash_b]: understand, especially food when you should be harvesting. Um, because

1151

01:06:00,310 --> 01:06:01,310

[sloane]: mm,

1152

01:06:01,440 --> 01:06:06,240

[ash_b]: I, I'm looking outside at my apple tree. Some apples on there. I have no clue when to

1153

01:06:06,480 --> 01:06:07,920

[ash_b]: pull that apple off of there. Actually

1154

01:06:09,120 --> 01:06:12,240

[ash_b]: know, cause it's like a green apple. I don't really know when it's ready.

1155

01:06:13,210 --> 01:06:17,690

[sloane]: Yup, Yeah, we've got cucumbers that we that I like. I totally forgot about. and like

1156

01:06:17,850 --> 01:06:20,570

[sloane]: if you leave a cucumber on the vine too long, it becomes disgusting.

1157

01:06:20,380 --> 01:06:21,380

[ash_b]: Yep,

1158

01:06:21,370 --> 01:06:26,330

[sloane]: Um, that's huge. Yeah, the I mean, I. I. I think you know, I'll just uh, I guess for

1159

01:06:26,410 --> 01:06:30,010

[sloane]: my tip this week, you know kind of retreat. Your thing about listening to the

1160

01:06:30,090 --> 01:06:35,290

[sloane]: insects. Um, you know, uh, because like the. I mean, one of the biggest indicators

1161

01:06:35,370 --> 01:06:39,610

[sloane]: for me of when, like my strawberries are ready to to to take. And you know we've got

1162

01:06:39,690 --> 01:06:43,690

[sloane]: these. These bushes are now remarkably productive. They're just spitting out berries

1163

01:06:43,850 --> 01:06:48,490

[sloane]: left and right. Uh, and they kind of do it in like trashes, So you know you'll get

1164

01:06:48,650 --> 01:06:51,610

[sloane]: like a a fist full of strawberries on once. Um,

1165

01:06:52,550 --> 01:06:53,550

[sloane]: it's fucking

1166

01:06:53,610 --> 01:06:58,650

[sloane]: awesome. It's the coolest thing. Everybody should grow strawberry plants. Um, but

1167

01:06:53,820 --> 01:06:54,820

[ash_b]: sounds fantastic

1168

01:06:58,970 --> 01:07:03,690

[sloane]: the, but usually like the I, you know at the beginning I was too so excited to get a

1169

01:07:03,690 --> 01:07:07,050

[sloane]: strawberry because you know you're not actually supposed to get a strawberry from

1170

01:07:07,130 --> 01:07:10,410

[sloane]: plant you, Jeff. Just planet, It's supposed to take them like a while to establish,

1171

01:07:11,050 --> 01:07:16,010

[sloane]: Um that I would always harvest them early. Um, but now I. I. I wait until the

1172

01:07:16,010 --> 01:07:20,490

[sloane]: insects have taken one or two of them, Um, and the birds, and then then the the

1173

01:07:20,570 --> 01:07:21,610

[sloane]: product is so much better.

1174

01:07:22,000 --> 01:07:26,480

[ash_b]: that we almost planned this. We didn't plan it, but it almost sounds to listeners

1175

01:07:26,300 --> 01:07:27,300

[ash_b]: like we did

1176

01:07:27,760 --> 01:07:33,440

[ash_b]: gardening. tip of the day. Pay attention to the flora and the fauna around your fruit

1177

01:07:28,070 --> 01:07:29,070

[sloane]: Yp, yeah, no,

1178

01:07:34,240 --> 01:07:36,160

[ash_b]: rather than just staring at the fruit itself.

1179

01:07:37,690 --> 01:07:38,810

[sloane]: yeah, yeah, I, I mean

1180

01:07:38,820 --> 01:07:39,820

[ash_b]: Good, tip.

1181

01:07:39,050 --> 01:07:42,890

[sloane]: I. That's so big. I mean good tip and well, And and like the insects, are you know

1182

01:07:42,970 --> 01:07:46,170

[sloane]: they're smart? They're like you know. they've got. They got instincts that have been

1183

01:07:46,250 --> 01:07:47,370

[sloane]: honed over generations.

1184

01:07:47,700 --> 01:07:48,700

[ash_b]: yeah,

1185

01:07:48,410 --> 01:07:51,050

[sloane]: Um, but that about does it for us today, I

1186

01:07:50,660 --> 01:07:51,660

[ash_b]: yeah.

1187

01:07:50,910 --> 01:07:51,910

[sloane]: think, um,

1188

01:07:52,805 --> 01:07:53,805

[mediaboard_sounds]: Im

1189

01:07:53,470 --> 01:07:54,470

[sloane]: i.

1190

01:07:53,545 --> 01:07:57,705

[mediaboard_sounds]: lookingment from Minum is

1191

01:07:59,725 --> 01:08:00,725

[mediaboard_sounds]: than remember,

1192

01:08:00,300 --> 01:08:01,300

[ash_b]: its.

1193

01:08:00,885 --> 01:08:01,885

[mediaboard_sounds]: Then I go ra on

1194

01:08:02,990 --> 01:08:03,990

[sloane]: I.

1195

01:08:03,725 --> 01:08:04,725

[mediaboard_sounds]: mo.